Pujols going out with a whimper

[Angel]

It really stinks we got the HoFer who went out with a long drawn-out whimper, remember Manny Ramirez with the Dodgers?  He was exciting to watch until his very last AB in the majors, same with A-Rod, exciting until his last AB, best examples are Jim Thome, Chipper Jones, Derek Jeter, Alomar, Ripkin they really went out with style.  Some quit as soon as their numbers declined, and didn't try to fool anyone that they were worth something extra.  They AT LEAST gave their teams something to cheer for until it was over.  I know Pujols is locked into a contract and couldn't go nowhere, which makes it worse.

[Stradling]

Putting Thome or tex in the same sentence with Albert is hilarious.  Those guys aren’t anywhere near Albert.  

[Angel]

Yeah I removed Tex as he isn't a sure HoF, but Thome belongs in every discussion with Pujols.  WTH you talking about?

[Inside Pitch]

6 minutes ago, Angel said:

Teixeira/Adrian Gonzales quit as soon as their numbers declined, he didn't try to fool anyone that he was worth something extra.  They AT LEAST gave their teams something to cheer for until it was over.  I know Pujols is locked into a contract and couldn't go nowhere, which makes it worse.

Adrian Gonzales and Teix both played out their huge contracts.

[Angel]

Eh you guys are straw manning me here, cut the bullshit.

Few HoFers go out with a long drawn out whimper like this.  It's not right.

[Docwaukee]

12 minutes ago, Angel said:

Eh you guys are straw manning me here, cut the bullshit.

Few HoFers go out with a long drawn out whimper like this.  It's not right.

fresh take.  

[ten ocho recon scout]

I wonder how Mantits, i mean Manny, eould have gone out with testing....

Notice how most of these guys are done about 30 now? 

The competition has gotten far more athletic in the last 2 decades. And they cant gear up like they used to anymore... its (mostly) from hard core training now.

[Angelsjunky]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

Putting Thome or tex in the same sentence with Albert is hilarious.  Those guys aren’t anywhere near Albert.  

Teixeira, agreed. Thome? It is closer than you might think:

Thome: .276/.402/.554, 145 wRC+, 69.1 fWAR, 612 HR, 1583 Runs, 1699 RBI in 2543 games

Pujols: .299/.378/.547, 143 wRC+, 87.6 fWAR, 659 HR, 1839 Runs, 2094 RBI in 2852 games

 

Pujols has the edge in most categories, but it isn't too far off. Albert was a much better player in his prime, and a better defender, but Thome was more consistent throughout his career.

Albert's first ten years made it seem like he was going to be in the inner circle of first basemen, along with Gehrig and Foxx. But his second act was so bad that he's right in the middle between those two and the field of Hall of Famers like Bagwell, Thome, McCovey, Thomas, Miggy, etc. 

[Angelsjunky]

I'm guessing that players like Pujols and Miggy are going to limit the number of long contracts for 30-something stars that we'll see in the future:

2017-20:

Miggy: .267/.342/.399, 97 wRC+, 0.1 fWAR, $99 million

ALbert: .242/.292/.405, 85 wRC+,  -2.7 fWAR, $95 million

[Angelsjunky]

And then there's Ryan Howard's last five years (2012-16):

.226/.292/.427, 93 wRC+, -1.7, $125 million

[ukyah]

yeah it does suck, but also is there any part of this that hasn't been covered ad nauseum? myself and every angel fan will be glad when he's gone and his angel career will be nothing but a footnote in his baseball career. one that no one will care about. that about sum it up?

[Inside Pitch]

37 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

Teixeira, agreed. Thome? It is closer than you might think:

Thome: .276/.402/.554, 145 wRC+, 69.1 fWAR, 612 HR, 1583 Runs, 1699 RBI in 2543 games

Pujols: .299/.378/.547, 143 wRC+, 87.6 fWAR, 659 HR, 1839 Runs, 2094 RBI in 2852 games

 

Pujols has the edge in most categories, but it isn't too far off. Albert was a much better player in his prime, and a better defender, but Thome was more consistent throughout his career.

Albert's first ten years made it seem like he was going to be in the inner circle of first basemen, along with Gehrig and Foxx. But his second act was so bad that he's right in the middle between those two and the field of Hall of Famers like Bagwell, Thome, McCovey, Thomas, Miggy, etc. 

Its close and not close at all...  Nearly 20 fWAR difference.   

When you consider how little he's added to his totals the last four years it really does point to just how much better his prime was.  

Thome was a flat out stud too.  A top 10 all time 1B in my book.

[Inside Pitch]

35 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

I'm guessing that players like Pujols and Miggy are going to limit the number of long contracts for 30-something stars that we'll see in the future:

2017-20:

Miggy: .267/.342/.399, 97 wRC+, 0.1 fWAR, $99 million

ALbert: .242/.292/.405, 85 wRC+,  -2.7 fWAR, $95 million

Unless Miggy walks away or completely turns it around he likely ends up being the uglier contract which is insane.  Dude is due another 94 mil after this season to APs 30.

Didn't think the AP deal would be out-uglied so quickly

[Angelsjunky]

4 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Its close and not close at all...  Nearly 20 fWAR difference.   

When you consider how little he's added to his totals the last four years it really does point to just how much better his prime was.  

Thome was a flat out stud too.  A top 10 all time 1B in my book.

Yep. As I said, his historic decline has placed him alone between the inner circle and the field. Or rather, he's right there with Cap Anson and Roger Connor, but those guys were very different players playing in a very different era so hard to compare.

[Angelsjunky]

1 minute ago, Inside Pitch said:

Unless Miggy walks away or completely turns it around he likely ends up being the uglier contract which is insane.  Dude is due another 94 mil after this season to APs 30.

Didn't think the AP deal would be out-uglied so quickly

Yeah, the Miggy contract is an utter disaster. Hard not to think these guys are several years older than they claim.

[Make Angels Great Again]

Thome was leaps and bounds better than Albert from age 32 and beyond. It's not even close.

 

[Angelsjunky]

Just now, Make Angels Great Again said:

Thome was leaps and bounds better than Albert from age 32 and beyond. It's not even close.

 

OK, now do the same through age 31. 

[Make Angels Great Again]

Just now, Angelsjunky said:

OK, now do the same through age 31. 

 

Why not just compare their age 31 seasons?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/thomeji01.shtml

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/pujolal01.shtml

 

Thome was also better by 49 points in OPS+.

[Angelsjunky]

Just now, Make Angels Great Again said:

 

Why not just compare their age 31 seasons?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/thomeji01.shtml

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/pujolal01.shtml

 

Thome was also better by 49 points in OPS+.

Why are you avoiding the fact that Pujols was vastly better through age 31? And the sum total still has Pujols as the better career?

I'm not disagreeing that Thome was much better age 32+, but let's at least look at the whole picture.

[Make Angels Great Again]

Sorry, I misunderstood you. You meant from the starts of their careers through age 31. Yeah albert has the edge there because Thome didn't really get going until age 25.

[Angelsjunky]

True. But even then, Pujols' peak was much higher, and he was better every year through age 30:

https://www.fangraphs.com/graphsw.aspx?players=409,1177

Or take their WAR seasons in order, from best to worst. Albert has the seven best seasons and 10 of the best 13. Thome has the next seven best, so that they both have 10 of the top 20.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2020&month=0&season1=1871&ind=1&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=409,1177&startdate=&enddate=

Or to put it another way:

MVP caliber seasons (7+ WAR): 9.5, 8.7, 8.4, 8.1, 7.8, 7.7, 7.7, 7.4, 7.3, 7.2

Star caliber (4-7): 6.8, 6.0, 5.4, 5.1, 4.8, 4.4, 4.3, 4.2, 4.1, 

Quality seasons (2-4): 3.9, 3.4, 3.3, 3.3, 3.1, 2.7

Mediocre seasons (0-2): 1.8, 1.7, 1.6, 1.1, 0.9, 0.8, 0.8, 0.5, 0.2

Bad seasons (negative) : -0.1, -0.1, -0.1, -0.2, -0.3, -0.4, -2.0

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by Angelsjunky

[Make Angels Great Again]

6 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

True. But even then, Pujols' peak was much higher, and he was better every year through age 30:

https://www.fangraphs.com/graphsw.aspx?players=409,1177

Or take their WAR seasons in order, from best to worst. Albert has the seven best seasons and 10 of the best 13.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2020&month=0&season1=1871&ind=1&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=409,1177&startdate=&enddate=

 

 

Yeah man Albert had the better overall career no doubt.

 

But despite that, the difference between the two on the back end of their careers is staggering.

[Angelsjunky]

4 minutes ago, Make Angels Great Again said:

 

Yeah man Albert had the better overall career no doubt.

 

But despite that, the difference between the two on the back end of their careers is staggering.

No doubt. One key difference is that Thome was never really a negative WAR player. His three negative WAR seasons are his first two cups of coffee at age 20-21, and one injured season at age 34. He produced 14.9 fWAR age 35+, while Pujols has been in the red.

I added a bit more to my last post, distributing their seasons in different categories.

[Inside Pitch]

17 hours ago, Angel said:

Eh you guys are straw manning me here, cut the bullshit.

Few HoFers go out with a long drawn out whimper like this.  It's not right.

Then say that and not some tripe about those guys walking away when they went bad. 

Both guys I responded about left when the checks stopped coming and not a minute before that.   In Gonzalez's case he tried catching on with another team, got paid by them too and was was released after tanking.

Dude was pushed out.

[Blarg]

12 hours ago, Angel said:

It really stinks we got the HoFer who went out with a long drawn-out whimper, remember Manny Ramirez with the Dodgers?  He was exciting to watch until his very last AB in the majors, same with A-Rod, exciting until his last AB, best examples are Jim Thome, Chipper Jones, Derek Jeter, Alomar, Ripkin they really went out with style.  Some quit as soon as their numbers declined, and didn't try to fool anyone that they were worth something extra.  They AT LEAST gave their teams something to cheer for until it was over.  I know Pujols is locked into a contract and couldn't go nowhere, which makes it worse.

I remember Ramirez being caught using estrogen to falsify steroid tests and being banned from baseball while being a Dodger. A-Rod being banned from baseball for using steroids as well and when he returned he was a burnt out shell of his former self.

Your first two examples were a pair of the worst cheaters in baseball and then you have the gall to say others are making making straw man arguments.