The Sign Stealing Scandal as it stands today

[jsnpritchett]

Just now, Lou said:

It's the Astros and Red Sox, so yes, you are. 

Ha ha.  Fair enough.  I just don't think it's a big deal, regardless of who the teams are.  (Side note: I also thought the steroids "scandal" was overblown...)

[kevinb]

2 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

Ha ha.  Fair enough.  I just don't think it's a big deal, regardless of who the teams are.  (Side note: I also thought the steroids "scandal" was overblown...)

steroid "scandal" overblown meaning what? You didn't think them using steroids was a big deal? Or you didn't think that many people were using?

[jsnpritchett]

3 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

steroid "scandal" overblown meaning what? You didn't think them using steroids was a big deal? Or you didn't think that many people were using?

The former.

[kevinb]

1 minute ago, jsnpritchett said:

The former.

Really? Interesting. You think it was only a handful of people?

[jsnpritchett]

Just now, Kevinb said:

Really? Interesting. You think it was only a handful of people?

I said the former.  That means that I didn't think players using steroids was a big deal.  I was entertained by the on-the-field play in that era.  That's all I cared about.

[kevinb]

Just now, jsnpritchett said:

I said the former.  That means that I didn't think players using steroids was a big deal.  I was entertained by the on-the-field play in that era.  That's all I cared about.

Haha oops I read my own post backwards and yes I agree w u

[ScottT]

These scandals are showing the importance of real journalism, it seems.  Sounds like MLB wanted to handle some of it on the down low.  Understandably so.  Now they now they need to crack down and I believe they will. The Astros allegations are outrageous.  The Red Sox had already been warned.  They are both gonna get smacked. But especially the Astros.

Also....  I'm  now a Mike Fiers fan.  

[ADHB]

9 hours ago, Pancake Bear said:

Look at players who left Houston the last couple of years and whose new team did suspiciously well. 

Unfortunately it wasn't Stassi.

Marwin Gonzalez would be the answer then.

[Pancake Bear]

1 hour ago, ADHB said:

Unfortunately it wasn't Stassi.

Marwin Gonzalez would be the answer then.

Yep. First in home runs in 2019. Went from 16th in team wRC+ to 3rd. 

Obviously that wasn’t the only change, but when I read the quote in the Athletic article:

“Oftentimes it takes a player to show up and be like ‘You f—— morons, you’re not doing this?’” said one American League executive.”

That’s the team and player that seem to be the most obvious fit. 

[Dtwncbad]

16 hours ago, jsnpritchett said:

I said the former.  That means that I didn't think players using steroids was a big deal.  I was entertained by the on-the-field play in that era.  That's all I cared about.

I am always amazed that so many baseball fans assume that when the roided “cheating” Jose Canseco smashes a 420 foot homer off some no-name middle reliever that is was absolutely NOT a roided “cheating” no-name middle reliever.

Very bad assumption.

[Stradling]

I think it’s a shitty assumption that everyone or a majority of players/teams are cheating.  Would you cheat at work for a promotion?

[VariousCrap]

By the time it is all said and done, my guess is every team does some form of electronic sign stealing in games.

 

 

[kevinb]

11 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I think it’s a shitty assumption that everyone or a majority of players/teams are cheating.  Would you cheat at work for a promotion?

I am sorry you think it's a shitty assumption. But it is a multi billion dollar industry. If one team is cutting corners, people will find out and they will then implement it next. It is a reason why PED's in sports is such a big deal. If the chances of you getting caught are slim and your production goes up because of it, and thus you get a huge pay day for it the risk/reward for such thing is high. Look how many people in sports have a monster one year get paid then go back to their career normals. It isn't rocket science. To think this is just one or two teams is silly. I imagine and am willing to bet this stuff is happening all over. Trends happen in sports constantly. Whether it's cheating or just if someone does something well other teams will copy it. Think about 3 pointers in the NBA, or short passing routes in the NFL, everything is a copy cat. The media are always behind the eight ball on this stuff. What were we told by the people in the know about drug use in sports, by the time the drug tests have caught up to the drugs, most the players are on to the next thing. It is a shitty assumption, but it is a reasonable assumption all the same. 

[Stradling]

21 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

I am sorry you think it's a shitty assumption. But it is a multi billion dollar industry. If one team is cutting corners, people will find out and they will then implement it next. It is a reason why PED's in sports is such a big deal. If the chances of you getting caught are slim and your production goes up because of it, and thus you get a huge pay day for it the risk/reward for such thing is high. Look how many people in sports have a monster one year get paid then go back to their career normals. It isn't rocket science. To think this is just one or two teams is silly. I imagine and am willing to bet this stuff is happening all over. Trends happen in sports constantly. Whether it's cheating or just if someone does something well other teams will copy it. Think about 3 pointers in the NBA, or short passing routes in the NFL, everything is a copy cat. The media are always behind the eight ball on this stuff. What were we told by the people in the know about drug use in sports, by the time the drug tests have caught up to the drugs, most the players are on to the next thing. It is a shitty assumption, but it is a reasonable assumption all the same. 

Ok, so you would cheat or wouldn’t cheat for a promotion at work?  

[kevinb]

Just now, Stradling said:

Ok, so you would cheat or wouldn’t cheat for a promotion at work?  

I work for myself. But this isn't about me this is about the public in general. If you threw a 50-300 million dollar carrot in front of someone or some organization, but you had to bend the rules a little bit... there will be many people bending those rules. We see it in society all the time. Whether it's fortune 500 companies or mom n pop shops. Would it be great if everyone was operating at a less than slimy way yes of course. But that's just not the world we live in. You don't have to look far to find something shady going on in the world. Whether it's a cheating scandal in baseball, or someone video taping in the NFL, college athletes getting paid under the table or US government officials getting "bribes" from companies/organizations. I get you are bothered by the assumptions, but that's just how it is. Baseball isn't exempt from world or societal problems. Pitchers have been doctoring baseballs for how long? hitters have corked bats etc to get an advantage. It is a kill or be killed mentality.

[Stradling]

1 hour ago, Kevinb said:

I work for myself. But this isn't about me this is about the public in general. If you threw a 50-300 million dollar carrot in front of someone or some organization, but you had to bend the rules a little bit... there will be many people bending those rules. We see it in society all the time. Whether it's fortune 500 companies or mom n pop shops. Would it be great if everyone was operating at a less than slimy way yes of course. But that's just not the world we live in. You don't have to look far to find something shady going on in the world. Whether it's a cheating scandal in baseball, or someone video taping in the NFL, college athletes getting paid under the table or US government officials getting "bribes" from companies/organizations. I get you are bothered by the assumptions, but that's just how it is. Baseball isn't exempt from world or societal problems. Pitchers have been doctoring baseballs for how long? hitters have corked bats etc to get an advantage. It is a kill or be killed mentality.

Yes, but I’d say most people won’t cheat for a promotion, you might see it different.  I can tell you that after these sanctions go down to the Astros and Red Sox there will no longer be organizational cheating.  It just won’t be worth it from the people in charge.  Especially if the GM of the Astros gets banned.  

When was the last there was a corked bat situation?  When was the last time a pitcher was caught with anything other than pine tar?  I am willing to bet you were not an adult the last time a hitter got caught with a corked bat.  Hell you may have been a pre-teen the last time there was a corked bat.  I also don’t remember the last time they found anything on a pitcher for doctoring the ball other than pine tar. That has probably been 15 or so years, maybe a little less.  

Steroids, yea, sure.  But was it a majority, no.  Electronic sign stealing, there might be a handful, 5 or less teams.  It isn’t rampant because if it was there would be a retired Jose Canseco type spilling the beans.  

[kevinb]

49 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Yes, but I’d say most people won’t cheat for a promotion, you might see it different.  I can tell you that after these sanctions go down to the Astros and Red Sox there will no longer be organizational cheating.  It just won’t be worth it from the people in charge.  Especially if the GM of the Astros gets banned.  

When was the last there was a corked bat situation?  When was the last time a pitcher was caught with anything other than pine tar?  I am willing to bet you were not an adult the last time a hitter got caught with a corked bat.  Hell you may have been a pre-teen the last time there was a corked bat.  I also don’t remember the last time they found anything on a pitcher for doctoring the ball other than pine tar. That has probably been 15 or so years, maybe a little less.  

Steroids, yea, sure.  But was it a majority, no.  Electronic sign stealing, there might be a handful, 5 or less teams.  It isn’t rampant because if it was there would be a retired Jose Canseco type spilling the beans.  

Corked bat I think the last thing I remember was Sammy Sosa? But I don't know. Pitcher wasn't Schilling caught with something or someone like that in the playoffs in the last 10 years? Whether people are getting caught isn't what it is, it's them not catching people. Similar to driving on the fwy the speed limit is 65 but how many people get tickets for going 70? or 75 even? Just because you don't get caught doesn't mean their isn't bending the rules. 

With the steroid thing me and you have argued about this before you think there weren't as many and I think it was over 50% and not by a little bit. From people I have talked to or people who are in that world that I know they don't think it was just a handful of people and it isn't just baseball. But that's an argument for another day. I think the electronic thing is just the beginning. Technology is getting better and better and these two/three teams are the only ones to get caught. I just don't think that those are the only two/three teams to do anything in regards to it. 

I agree once Red Sox and Astros get pummeled with penalties for the electronic sign stealing it will halt things for a bit. But it will only move the goal post to the next way to get an advantage. Just like I don't think players all of a sudden stopped using PED's they just stopped using ones that are detected. . 

[Dtwncbad]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

I think it’s a shitty assumption that everyone or a majority of players/teams are cheating.  Would you cheat at work for a promotion?

You think it is a bad assumption that marginal fringe baseball players, when baseball was not enforcing steroid testing, would take steroids to boost their number so they would have the best shot at a multi year multi million dollar contract versus hoping to get another team in the big leagues to given one more year at $600k?

Seriously?

[Stradling]

13 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

You think it is a bad assumption that marginal fringe baseball players, when baseball was not enforcing steroid testing, would take steroids to boost their number so they would have the best shot at a multi year multi million dollar contract versus hoping to get another team in the big leagues to given one more year at $600k?

Seriously?

I didn’t say that.  #lifetime

[AngelsLakersFan]

35 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

Corked bat I think the last thing I remember was Sammy Sosa? But I don't know. Pitcher wasn't Schilling caught with something or someone like that in the playoffs in the last 10 years? Whether people are getting caught isn't what it is, it's them not catching people. Similar to driving on the fwy the speed limit is 65 but how many people get tickets for going 70? or 75 even? Just because you don't get caught doesn't mean their isn't bending the rules. 

With the steroid thing me and you have argued about this before you think there weren't as many and I think it was over 50% and not by a little bit. From people I have talked to or people who are in that world that I know they don't think it was just a handful of people and it isn't just baseball. But that's an argument for another day. I think the electronic thing is just the beginning. Technology is getting better and better and these two/three teams are the only ones to get caught. I just don't think that those are the only two/three teams to do anything in regards to it. 

I agree once Red Sox and Astros get pummeled with penalties for the electronic sign stealing it will halt things for a bit. But it will only move the goal post to the next way to get an advantage. Just like I don't think players all of a sudden stopped using PED's they just stopped using ones that are detected. . 

Players are going to push things all the way up to the line... whatever that line is where they won't get blow back... and it takes time for players to push ahead, to test the system for weaknesses and see what they can get away with. Steroids went unchecked for years because MLB was OK with it. When the players know it's fine they will all start lining up to stay competitive and after a decade of turning a blind eye of course it was rampant. Now they are taking whatever they can that won't trigger a positive drug test.

The Red Sox pushed those limits and they got a stern warning, but it has only been a few years.  The line and the punishment were established, which compelled the Astros to push things further. They stuck their neck out more than they should've and now they are going to be made an example of. I don't think you will find the majority of teams going beyond what the Red Sox did with their Apple watches.

[tdawg87]

As a completely unbiased person here, I'd be absolutely OK with a punishment that ends up contracting the Houston Astros and Boston Red Sox.

It would be a tough pill to swallow, but it's only fair.

[Dtwncbad]

Let me share two stories without naming names.

Story 1:

lady that worked with us many years ago had a son “stud” baseball player trying to make it.  OK numbers in low minors and was advancing but was also probably at least a year too old for the level he was at, so his future was not clear.

He decided he needed to have a big year to change the perception of him as a prospect so he decided he would use steroids.  He had a “breakout” monster year in AA at 24.

He got to the majors and busted his butt and also kept up with the steroids.  He lingered around and had some pockets of offensive success (was appreciated because of his “pop” for a utility player).

He was finally offered a multi-year contract and he took it.

He then quit the steroids, never tested positive, and retired in his late 20s at the end of that contract having made a total of a few million dollars.

He was basically a nobody.  But steroids for him made a ton of sense to secured a few million in his 20s rather than be out of baseball trying to find a job for $60k a year.

Story 2:

A first hand friend of a family member (I coached him and he played ball with my nephew for years) was good but not great.  He went to a JC and started the roids.  Breakout!  He openly joked with his high school teammates that “you gotta do what you gotta do” if you want to be a pro.  A couple of years later he makes his mlb debut.

He is a major leaguer today and again a nobody.

——————

The point if both of these stories is how the lesser known, less capable players use steroids to just make a living.
 

I know for a fact these are both accurate stories.  Should I assume these guys are alone or is it pretty reasonable to assume there are tons and tons and tons of marginal players who have used steroids to just make a living?

So back to my point:  I think it is silly when people assume that when Jose Canseco mashes a 420 foot homer, that the no name pitcher he faced wasn't also juiced.

I know it’s easy to consider a superstar player might use roids to get themselves a monster contract, but it makes AT LEAST as much sense to believe that tons of others used steroids to just get themselves a few million versus a couple hundred thousand (or being out of baseball altogether).

I would argue a person would be at least as tempted to “cheat” to go from being broke to having a few million locked down (not really risking reputation because he is a body without the roids anyway) compared to the guy who wants to cheat to get $75m instead of $35m who will be rich either way and has a reputation to damage.

To me there is no logical way to believe roids were not very, very, very widespread.

[Stradling]

8 minutes ago, RBM said:

 

So, what did you mean to say?

Simply that the notion that everyone cheats or a majority of teams are cheating is not accurate and overblown.  People are quick to point the finger, but if you ask them if they would cheat for a promotion they won’t say they will.  They have no problem assuming everyone else does, but they are above it.  That is my point.  When steroids were rampant I still believe less than half the league was on them.  Could I be wrong, sure.  Do I think more fringe players took them than stars, yes.  Do I think a majority of organizations are cheating and stealing signs in a way that would be called cheating (electronically) no I don’t.  Could be a few.  If I was going to bet on one team that may have cheated last year it would be the Twins.  Too many homers.  That is what I was implying.  

[kevinb]

58 minutes ago, RBM said:

Got it. I agree. I don't think it was a majority of players using steroids and it's not a majority of the teams e-cheating. Who knows what the steroid percentage was before testing. We do know the players who were later caught and who were later implicated in using but still, 

I do think the MLB must do a better job of policing themselves so they can be more proactive and less reactive. Like I mentioned earlier...

 

Every sport is reactive though. The tests aren't there for PED's till the next one comes up. It is why the Tour De France keeps blood for what like 5 years or something after. Just so if they do get a new test they can test it to see if the guy cheats. People break the law, bend the rules, or cheat. It is life. Most people/organizations don't get caught and the very few who do suffer the consequences. I again go back to driving on the fwy. If the police ticket everyone who went over 65 no one would ever speed. But they don't catch every single person, it is impossible to. So people drive over the speed limit. It is what it is. 

The war on drugs started in what the 80s? 70s? How effective has it been at deterring drugs in our society? 

[Tank]

1 minute ago, Kevinb said:

Every sport is reactive though. The tests aren't there for PED's till the next one comes up. It is why the Tour De France keeps blood for what like 5 years or something after. Just so if they do get a new test they can test it to see if the guy cheats. People break the law, bend the rules, or cheat. It is life. Most people/organizations don't get caught and the very few who do suffer the consequences. I again go back to driving on the fwy. If the police ticket everyone who went over 65 no one would ever speed. But they don't catch every single person, it is impossible to. So people drive over the speed limit. It is what it is. 

why don't we start by executing college boosters and see how it goes from there.