Is this bullpen running on fumes, or just not that talented?

[Angel Oracle]

Outside of Buttrey and maybe BadRock, this pen has sucked recently.

Overworked, or true talent level finally showing for the others?    Or is Doug White not all that?

Hurry up and return, Middleton and J.C. Ramirez!   

And for crying out loud to those starters not named Canning, can you please pitch even a freaking 6 innings for a freaking change?    Especially you, Cahill!    Got it?  Good!

Ten QS's in 55 games (LAST in the AL)?   Really? Really? Really?   Really?
 

[Blarg]

Noe Ramirez fastball sits at about 89 mph. His changeup at 84. There is little velocity difference in those two pitches and they make up 70% of his pitch total. It takes very little hitter adjustment to tag either. 

It's about talent. 

[DMVol]

1 minute ago, Blarg said:

 .....It's about talent. 

[floplag]

Bit of both i think?  When they are being asked to do 3-4 innings a night they are going to bet gassed, and yes a couple of them are just not as good as others..
Its another reason im not fond of the opener thing in that it actually takes a guy that could give you a couple and limits him to 1, but that argument is moot at this point. 

[totdprods]

They're absolutely being overworked.

[Claude]

2 minutes ago, totdprods said:

They're absolutely being overworked.

Yep their early success was terrific but they’re running out of gas. 

[Docwaukee]

the opener has been working for this team decently well.  

the only guy that's probably a bit overworked right now is Buttrey and maybe Robles.  

it's going to get worse too as they're right in the middle of a 25 game is 26 day stretch.  They're going to have to make some roster moves here soon or we're gonna see guys like Garcia, Allen, Jewell in some important situations.  

[Docwaukee]

btw, the reason the team's pen struggles have been more noticeable is centered around Anderson giving up 6 runs in his last 4 outings. 

He's kinda the lynch pin of the pen in that we really need him as a high leverage guy to slot in either right before or right after Buttrey before it gets to Robles.  

and yes, getting Key and JC back will be huge.  

[krAbs]

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, Angel Oracle said:

Outside of Buttrey and maybe BadRock, this pen has sucked recently.

Overworked, or true talent level finally showing for the others?    Or is Doug White not all that?

Hurry up and return, Middleton and J.C. Ramirez!   

And for crying out loud to those starters not named Canning, can you please pitch even a freaking 6 innings for a freaking change?    Especially you, Cahill!    Got it?  Good!

Ten QS's in 55 games (LAST in the AL)?   Really? Really? Really?   Really?
 

They are over worked.  

[greginpsca]

AO, i think it is a little bit of all 3 that you listed.

[Mark PT]

1 hour ago, Angel Oracle said:

Outside of Buttrey and maybe BadRock, this pen has sucked recently.

Overworked, or true talent level finally showing for the others?    Or is Doug White not all that?

Hurry up and return, Middleton and J.C. Ramirez!   

And for crying out loud to those starters not named Canning, can you please pitch even a freaking 6 innings for a freaking change?    Especially you, Cahill!    Got it?  Good!

Ten QS's in 55 games (LAST in the AL)?   Really? Really? Really?   Really?
 

Both, but I think the starting pitching is a little more at fault. Cahill sucks, not a pitcher. He has zero control of any pitch causing him to fall behind in the count and forcing him to pipe a fastball. He is not even a #5 pitcher on a bad staff.

[zenmaster]

Overworked and undertalented

[Vlad27Trout27]

there's enough talent in there with guys like; Anderson, Garcia, Robles and Buttrey each with closer potential. They have been overworked. Anderson has been  disastrous in May yet his Fip and xfip are around 3 compare to his era. Than you have Robles who has been up and down, but he's been lights out at home but garbage on the road (which i don't get why he's closing  away games) Garcia looks like he could fall of any time, unless he bring those BB down. Outside of Buttrey and surprising Garcia has been garbage in May. 

[Angel Oracle]

Anderson is on pace to pretty much match his innings pitched in 2017 and 2018 (MiLB and MLB combined).   So it's not a case of him being overworked.

He has reverted to Wild Anderson though, FIVE walks in his past 5.1 innings, after just 5 BBs over the previous 13.1 innings.

Are hitters sitting on pitches more, since he is out of the zone much more often lately?   He's allowed EIGHT hits in his past 5.1 innings.

This Anderson is garbage time quality, and NO better!

 

[Mark PT]

24 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Anderson is on pace to pretty much match his innings pitched in 2017 and 2018 (MiLB and MLB combined).   So it's not a case of him being overworked.

He has reverted to Wild Anderson though, FIVE walks in his past 5.1 innings, after just 5 BBs over the previous 13.1 innings.

Are hitters sitting on pitches more, since he is out of the zone much more often lately?   He's allowed EIGHT hits in his past 5.1 innings.

This Anderson is garbage time quality, and NO better!

 

Correct. He is like Cahill, no control. He is just a guy who can throw hard and has good movement on his breaking ball but no control. 

[stormngt]

48 minutes ago, Vlad27Trout27 said:

there's enough talent in there with guys like; Anderson, Garcia, Robles and Buttrey each with closer potential. They have been overworked. Anderson has been  disastrous in May yet his Fip and xfip are around 3 compare to his era. Than you have Robles who has been up and down, but he's been lights out at home but garbage on the road (which i don't get why he's closing  away games) Garcia looks like he could fall of any time, unless he bring those BB down. Outside of Buttrey and surprising Garcia has been garbage in May. 

Can anyone tell me what Fip stands for and what does it measure?

[Pancake Bear]

6 hours ago, stormngt said:

Can anyone tell me what Fip stands for and what does it measure?

“Fielding Independent Pitching (FIP) measures what a player’s ERA would look like over a given period of time if the pitcher were to have experienced league average results on balls in play and league average timing.”

Source: https://library.fangraphs.com/pitching/fip/

 

Basically, it assumes pitching to favorable contact is not a skill. So Weaver always fared badly with fip. Regardless, it tries to estimate how much is definitively pitcher skill by weeding out defensive noise in either direction. 

[Stradling]

39 minutes ago, Sean-Regan said:

“Fielding Independent Pitching (FIP) measures what a player’s ERA would look like over a given period of time if the pitcher were to have experienced league average results on balls in play and league average timing.”

Source: https://library.fangraphs.com/pitching/fip/

 

Basically, it assumes pitching to favorable contact is not a skill. So Weaver always fared badly with fip. Regardless, it tries to estimate how much is definitively pitcher skill by weeding out defensive noise in either direction. 

It is also field neutral?   

[Pancake Bear]

31 minutes ago, Stradling said:

It is also field neutral?   

Could be. I’m not sure. Would make sense. 

[stormngt]

3 hours ago, Sean-Regan said:

“Fielding Independent Pitching (FIP) measures what a player’s ERA would look like over a given period of time if the pitcher were to have experienced league average results on balls in play and league average timing.”

Source: https://library.fangraphs.com/pitching/fip/

 

Basically, it assumes pitching to favorable contact is not a skill. So Weaver always fared badly with fip. Regardless, it tries to estimate how much is definitively pitcher skill by weeding out defensive noise in either direction. 

How is favorable contact not a skill?

[Make Angels Great Again]

2 minutes ago, stormngt said:

How is favorable contact not a skill?

I think it is.

Which is why I personally take FIP with a grain of salt.

Others disagree, and that's fine.

[Make Angels Great Again]

It's also why I put little stock in pitcher WAR because I believe it relies heavily on FIP.

[Carlos]

Don't forget this garbage staff has given up around 11 HR the last 3 games + tonight. That says a lot.

[Pancake Bear]

1 hour ago, stormngt said:

How is favorable contact not a skill?

Because in most cases guys who appear good at it one season suck at it the next and vice verse. The data for most pitchers suggests it’s more random than not. It is measurable. 

There do seem to be rare exceptions, though.