Angels the "Mystery Team" in on Machado?

[jessecrall]

19 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

I hope you are right.  I personally don't think the above 31 data applies to Simmons as if he were mortal.  His defense is beyond comparable to even outliers.  He's a legit 4-5 win player but I guess it boils down to whether you think defensive metrics are accurate in terms of establishing his worth.  I would be thrilled to get him for less than 20m per season on an extension.  

Ozzie played at an All Star-level through the age of 37 and Omar held his defensive value into his 40s...they're anomalies and it would be incredibly naive to EXPECT Simmons to repeat that paradigm...but it is possible. 

[Pancake Bear]

2 hours ago, Second Base said:

Think of all the reasons why signing Manny Machado would be a good thing for the Angels. Now think of all the reasons why it isn't feasible or likely.

Simply put, the latter is more likely, by a mile.

Now ask yourself, is Billy Eppler an intelligent GM?

And one last question. Do you think if the common fan can see all the reasons why this is a terrible idea, do you think an intelligent professional, whose job it is to build a team can see that too?

The Angels aren't in on Machado. We could go through all the reasons why or we can keep it nice and short. 

Since Billy Eppler is an intelligent GM, and since he is a professional whose job it is to see things like this when building a team: If he was to shockingly sign Machado to a contract in the neighborhood of numbers we’ve been hearing, would that mean that all those problems that the common fan can see aren’t as big a deal, or would it mean that despite his intelligence he just missed them? 

[Docwaukee]

44 minutes ago, jessecrall said:

Ozzie played at an All Star-level through the age of 37 and Omar held his defensive value into his 40s...they're anomalies and it would be incredibly naive to EXPECT Simmons to repeat that paradigm...but it is possible. 

Simmons is on par with them currently.  He's an outlier to that level.  It's a small sample so one can't expect that.  But guys with Simmons talent at SS don't perform at his level because of physical tools greater than the next guy like speed or quickness.  It's innate.  Instinct.  He might lose a step over time or he might be so good at it that his experience actually offsets that.  Where the innate ability is so amazing that a little loss of foot speed or quickness actually only starts to matter in his late 30's.  

What Simmons has accumulated in defensive value to this point in his career is almost double that of any SS in history.  He's been better at defense relative to his peers than Mike Trout has been at baseball overall relative to his by a landslide.  For him to drop off to 'normal' would a pujolsian level of decline.  And just to sweeten the deal, he's doing it in far fewer chances per year because guys don't hit the ball on the ground as much anymore.  

The only real question is whether he maintains his current ability with the bat.  

[stormngt]

6 hours ago, Sean-Regan said:

Pujols, for one. 

Pujols isnt a Boras player.  It is Boras that always leak to the media about some mystery team.  It is believed he dies this to create an environment where a team may bid against themselves and jack the salary up.

I dont think it was ever reported that there was a "mystery team" involved in the negotiations of Pujols.  I maybe wrong.

 

 

[Angelsjunky]

One thing consider is the relative size of these guys:

Ozzie: 5'11", 150 lbs

Vizquel: 5'9", 180 lbs

Simmons: 6'2", 200 lbs

I'm not sure how that figures into aging, but I suppose it makes sense that larger size would equate with reduced mobility and thus quicker defensive decline.

On the other hand, Cal Ripken--who was even bigger at 6'4", 225 lbs--remained an excellent defensive shortstop into his mid-30s. Andrelton could also continue to improve with the bat, at least incrementally.

Anyhow, I think the bottom line is, unlike Trout, you probably play wait and see and only extend him in his last year, if at all. The Angels have a couple intriguing shortstop prospects in Rengifo, Soto, and Jackson (if he remains at SS).

As for Machado, I like him on paper and think he has a good chance of producing 30-40+ WAR over the next eight years. But I worry about qualities that you don't see in the stat line - his impact in the clubhouse. If he brings a bad chemistry, even if he's putting runs on the board that could negatively impact chances of Trout staying. On the other hand, I don't think they sign Machado unless they have a deal worked out with Trout as well.

 

[arch stanton]

I doubt anyone looking to sign Machado sees him at short past age 30 or so, if even that long

[Angelsjunky]

Machado is not a good shortstop; he's average at best. He is a very good third baseman, however.

[totdprods]

9 hours ago, Dochalo said:

I've got no problem if the Angels want to spend more money to add better players that can help for now and in the future.  

I just don't like Manny Machado.  

but here's something to consider.  A Simmons extension is likely going to cost you at least 5/100.  Probably closer to 5/125.  Including his 2020 season, that 6/140.  Or an AAV of 23.3m.  

If you can get Machado at 8/220 or an aav of 27.5m, (plus that extra 2 years) does it make sense to trade Simmons after this year (who, as a 4-5 WAR player likely has very good value on the trade market), and get a couple of players including a pitcher with #1 potential and maybe our catcher of the future while only adding about 4m in AAV starting in 2021?  What if Simmons has indicated that he's got no interest in an extension?  

If Simmons wants to stay that may change people's minds, but should it?  I love Simmons, but adding Machado for 8 years from age 26-33 for an extra 4m in AAV PLUS two top prospects who are essentially major league ready vs. keeping Simmons for age 30-35 on just a little less money per year seems like something the team should absolutely consider.  

Thank you. I’ve been trying to raise this point gently, because Simmons is arguably my favorite player. 

In a perfect world, the Angels sign Simmons to a great extension for player and club and everything is hunky dory but rarely does everything work out that smoothly. He’s at a juncture now where his trade value is probably the highest it will ever be again in his career, and if the Angels continue to have trouble developing reliable, healthy, impact SP, they might be better off considering it, especially if Machado is brought in.

Curious to see if Simba has one more offensive upswing in him still too. If he plateaus at a 100-115 OPS+, that’s fantastic and still worth a big contract, but perhaps not the best value. I could see him taking another step forward still, and he’s right at the age for that. A 120-130 OPS+ is a no brainer pay him whatever scenario. 

[ScruffytheJanitor]

8 hours ago, Lou said:

I'm not going to lie, this really surprises me.  

It doesn't really surprise me. There was a good 4 year window where there just wasn't very many good short stops coming up through the minors. A few of those that did get through (Dee Gordon or heck, even Justin Upton if I remember right) moved off the position and many others (Grant Green) flamed out. Seriously; go back and check the 2004-2008 MLB drafts, and you won't find many decent short stops-- it's basically Brandon Crawford and Cozart, and they were both 31 last year.

[Angel Oracle]

Is it possible for Pujols, Trout, and Simba to get into Machado’s head and eliminate the immaturity?

[Blarg]

No.

[Lou]

1 hour ago, ScruffytheJanitor said:

It doesn't really surprise me. There was a good 4 year window where there just wasn't very many good short stops coming up through the minors. A few of those that did get through (Dee Gordon or heck, even Justin Upton if I remember right) moved off the position and many others (Grant Green) flamed out. Seriously; go back and check the 2004-2008 MLB drafts, and you won't find many decent short stops-- it's basically Brandon Crawford and Cozart, and they were both 31 last year.

wut about dem damn foreigners?

[halomatt]

49 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Is it possible for Pujols, Trout, and Simba to get into Machado’s head and eliminate the immaturity?

Yes.  It's been a couple of decades, but I still remember how stupid I was at 26.  He's still pretty young, really. 

[halomatt]

1 minute ago, Lou said:

wut about dem damn foreigners?

Nationalist.

[Blarg]

2 minutes ago, Lou said:

wut about dem damn foreigners?

[tdawg87]

Bathtubcholos.jpg

[Cdaniel]

8 hours ago, stormngt said:

Pujols isnt a Boras player.  It is Boras that always leak to the media about some mystery team.  It is believed he dies this to create an environment where a team may bid against themselves and jack the salary up.

I dont think it was ever reported that there was a "mystery team" involved in the negotiations of Pujols.  I maybe wrong.

 

 

Boras isnt Manny's agent Dan Lozano is.  Dan Lozano also represents Albert Pujols.

[floplag]

1 hour ago, Angel Oracle said:

Is it possible for Pujols, Trout, and Simba to get into Machado’s head and eliminate the immaturity?

I believe it is, If you look at his career to date hes been the man, there was noone on the team for him to look up to or with the moxie to get in his face.  Any of those 3 men are on that level.  Im not suggesting it would work, only that if it ever would, they are the ones  to do it. 

Also, anyone signing him to play SS as more than a short gap is making a giant mistake.  You could maybe justify the money as a 3B, but not as a SS.  

[Jay]

Not crazy about Machado but it would be pretty exciting to get Harper on the team.

Trout/Harper would be fun to watch and the media would eat it up.

 

[Blarg]

57 minutes ago, floplag said:

I believe it is, If you look at his career to date hes been the man, there was noone on the team for him to look up to or with the moxie to get in his face. 

Chris Davis, Adam Jones, and Danny Valencia were established veterans  all on the team and better than Machado was bit still couldn't knock sense into the little pricks head.

He even had Buck Showalter, that doesn't put up with shit, as his manager and still wouldn't change his ways.

He is going to be a self serving asshole the rest of his career and life. He is not going to ever have that come to Jesus moment and suddenly become a complete player that cares nor will he stop intentionally injuring other players. 

[floplag]

17 minutes ago, Blarg said:

Chris Davis, Adam Jones, and Danny Valencia were established veterans  all on the team and better than Machado was bit still couldn't knock sense into the little pricks head.

He even had Buck Showalter, that doesn't put up with shit, as his manager and still wouldn't change his ways.

He is going to be a self serving asshole the rest of his career and life. He is not going to ever have that come to Jesus moment and suddenly become a complete player that cares nor will he stop intentionally injuring other players. 

None of those players carry the respect Pujols does alone in the baseball and Latino community.  Thats no disrespect to them, its just reality.  No player in the game can hold a candle to Trout.  Its not apples to apples.  The group you list are his peers, the guys i list are his superiors.  On this team noone would be looking to Manny to carry them, just to do his job.  
Now again im not suggesting we do it, im just saying that IF its possible to curtail his issues, those are the men that could do it. 

[Inside Pitch]

22 minutes ago, Blarg said:

Chris Davis, Adam Jones, and Danny Valencia were established veterans  all on the team and better than Machado was bit still couldn't knock sense into the little pricks head.

He even had Buck Showalter, that doesn't put up with shit, as his manager and still wouldn't change his ways.

He is going to be a self serving asshole the rest of his career and life. He is not going to ever have that come to Jesus moment and suddenly become a complete player that cares nor will he stop intentionally injuring other players. 

Just the reality that he couldnt keep from being such a wad while playing for Showalter the old schoolingest manager of his era speaks volumes.   Dude was all about the unwritten rules and yet you had Machado purposely going out of his way to bonk catchers, spike players, and generally be a degenerate.

[Stradling]

I truly don’t like Machado, but I would somehow ignore that I don’t like him if we signed him.  It is really tough to get that type of talent in their prime and we would have two of them plus Ohtani and the guy right behind them as it relates to age and prime.  

[Docwaukee]

are the CWS the only team with an offer on the table?  Somewhere in the reported range of 7/200.  

the yanks bailed out.  the dogs had him on he team and never even considered bringing him back (albeit likely because of Seager returning).  

the phils are involved and there is a mystery team.   

This guy is supposedly an MVP candidate yet where's all the activity?  And at a cost that seems lower that originally expected.  

it's because teams don't want to take the risk on him due to his character and attitude.  

It's a huge red flag and most are appropriately heeding such a warning.  

 

[Stradling]

3 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

are the CWS the only team with an offer on the table?  Somewhere in the reported range of 7/200.  

the yanks bailed out.  the dogs had him on he team and never even considered bringing him back (albeit likely because of Seager returning).  

the phils are involved and there is a mystery team.   

This guy is supposedly an MVP candidate yet where's all the activity?  And at a cost that seems lower that originally expected.  

it's because teams don't want to take the risk on him due to his character and attitude.  

It's a huge red flag and most are appropriately heeding such a warning.  

 

Which just means there is a chance he becomes an option to a team because the cost is less.