The stupid patience thread

[floplag]

4 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

The other thing about this whole notion of going "all in" now to appease Trout is that it ignores the fact that, although Trout does want to win, he also wants to be paid fairly. Any money spent now on Bryce Harper or Dallas Keuchel or Craig Kimbrel is going to take away from what Trout can be paid.

The way to go is this....

"Hey Mike, we're going to give you a ton of money, which means we can't give anyone else a ton of money. But that's OK because we already have a decent core and our farm system is getting a lot better, so pretty soon we'll have a lot of awesome cheap guys (Ohtani, Adell, Canning, etc.) here playing around you and making no money. But in the meantime, we're going to be as good as we can be by getting guys like Gio Gonzalez or Daniel Murphy on short-term deals. With 3-4 of the right upgrades, and a little better luck with health, we can be a playoff team in 19 and 20, and we'll still have the core that's going to make us even better after that."

I for one am not suggesting going all in, just not throwing away 2 years on the hopes that the kids all develop to be more than they project to be.
Im completely in agreement about some short term deals that make sense.    There is only one of my suggestions that goes more than 2-3 years at most.
I think maybe we are arguing the same point from different angles.
My only objection to this thread is the premise that we have to continue to be mediocre at best over the next 2 years, not that we have to go ham. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

1 minute ago, floplag said:

I for one am not suggesting going all in, just not throwing away 2 years on the hopes that the kids all develop to be more than they project to be.
Im completely in agreement about some short term deals that make sense.    There is only one of my suggestions that goes more than 2-3 years at most.
I think maybe we are arguing the same point from different angles.
My only objection to this thread is the premise that we have to continue to be mediocre at best over the next 2 years, not that we have to go ham. 

I didn't think I was arguing with you at all. This whole thread I've been trying to support your ideas, against those who think either go "all in" or "tank."

[floplag]

6 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I didn't think I was arguing with you at all. This whole thread I've been trying to support your ideas, against those who think either go "all in" or "tank."

i meant that figuratively but yeah, agreed.  It doesnt need to be one of the other.

[Docwaukee]

51 minutes ago, floplag said:

Lets assume for a moment this is right, how exactly do you do that? 
We are not a top 5 farm, not even top 10 i dont think last i checked.  Bleacher reports has us at 14, up from 19. We have 1 (Adell) tier 1 guy, one.  
The rest of what we have doesnt project to be more than average to good major leaguers, not a bunch of stars.  This is what drafting in the middle gets you.  Mediocre ML team gets you mediocre draft picks.  Theree is no plan open to us that makes us the next Hou or ChiC.  
So... where is all this playoff contending talent coming from? 

you're wrong about almost all of this.  

[Jay]

By definition if you are an Angels fan you are patient. Or you live in Orange County. 

[Docwaukee]

41 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I didn't think I was arguing with you at all. This whole thread I've been trying to support your ideas, against those who think either go "all in" or "tank."

I would like to know how many are in either of those categories.   

[eligrba]

I am in the build the team and let Mike decide whether he wants to part of it or not category.  Ohtani has made his decision after looking at all of the options.  I am confident that Mike stays an Angel and plays until he is 40.

Timing has never been the Angels strong suit.

[floplag]

19 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

you're wrong about almost all of this.  

Am i?  
I just checked BR, thats dead right for its end of 2018 rating.   only Adell is rated tier 1, followed by a group of 5 2s, and the rests are 3s. 
By definition if you draft in the middle of rounds you get middle rated talent barring someone dropping or an incredibly deep group, which most arent.

See for yourself:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2794480-re-ranking-all-30-mlb-farm-systems-at-the-end-of-2018-milb-season
In contrast everyone on SD list is 2 or higher, 6 #1s.   Tor has 2 1s, and the top 9 is all 2 or better.  Chisox have 4 tier 1s.  Oak 3 tier 1s.  Hou 3 tier 1s.
Unless a lot of these guys beat thier projections, we dont have any potential stars coming up aside from Adell, just a group of probably good major leaguers who arent likely to make any all star games.  how does that suddenly make us so competitive against teams that still have more in the pipeline than we do?   

So.. what am i wrong about?   If your going to tell me im wrong, at least explain how. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

@floplag

Im not Doc, so I cant answer for him. But first, id take bleacher report with a grain of salt. The criteria to post there is the same as here...

Second, where you mention our farm and where its ranked. Someone above already mentioned this (i think fletcher). We dont need another trout to come from the farm. The core is already here. What we need is adell to replace calhoun. Someone (renigfo or jones) to become an everyday 2B. That will allow us to trade off excess to fix another problem.

And like i said before. Around the time that happens, pujols will be coming off the books.

This idea about a 2 year window, win with trout now is silly. If trout was indicating "im leaving in 2 years", it would be stupid to try to win with a broken team (like we are) now. And it would make perfect sense to trade him now. The fact thats not happening...

[floplag]

3 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

@floplag

Im not Doc, so I cant answer for him. But first, id take bleacher report with a grain of salt. The criteria to post there is the same as here...

Second, where you mention our farm and where its ranked. Someone above already mentioned this (i think fletcher). We dont need another trout to come from the farm. The core is already here. What we need is adell to replace calhoun. Someone (renigfo or jones) to become an everyday 2B. That will allow us to trade off excess to fix another problem.

And like i said before. Around the time that happens, pujols will be coming off the books.

This idea about a 2 year window, win with trout now is silly. If trout was indicating "im leaving in 2 years", it would be stupid to try to win with a broken team (like we are) now. And it would make perfect sense to trade him now. The fact thats not happening...

Fine, find me ANY source that suggest we have a top 10 farm or better than Hou/Oak etc... that suggests this plan would make us a contender without some help from outside the org such as FA signings. 
I mean you cant trade ANY of those guys that you are counting on so... again i ask, how does this suddenly make us good enough when this magic happens?

[tdawg87]

8 minutes ago, floplag said:

Am i?  
I just checked BR, thats dead right for its end of 2018 rating.   only Adell is rated tier 1, followed by a group of 5 2s, and the rests are 3s. 
By definition if you draft in the middle of rounds you get middle rated talent barring someone dropping or an incredibly deep group, which most arent.

See for yourself:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2794480-re-ranking-all-30-mlb-farm-systems-at-the-end-of-2018-milb-season
In contrast everyone on SD list is 2 or higher, 6 #1s.   Tor has 2 1s, and the top 9 is all 2 or better.  Chisox have 4 tier 1s.  Oak 3 tier 1s.  Hou 3 tier 1s.
Unless a lot of these guys beat thier projections, we dont have any potential stars coming up aside from Adell, just a group of probably good major leaguers who arent likely to make any all star games.  how does that suddenly make us so competitive against teams that still have more in the pipeline than we do?   

So.. what am i wrong about?   If your going to tell me im wrong, at least explain how. 

Let's assume you are right and most of our prospects are "average to good major Leaguers". Do we want to deplete that by giving up our absolute best prospects for a chance at winning in '19 and '20? 

[floplag]

Just now, tdawg87 said:

Let's assume you are right and most of our prospects are "average to good major Leaguers". Do we want to deplete that by giving up our absolute best prospects for a chance at winning in '19 and '20? 

i never suggested depleting it, but doing nothing for 2 years and still not being significantly better makes even less sense wouldnt you say?

[tdawg87]

2 minutes ago, floplag said:

Fine, find me ANY source that suggest we have a top 10 farm or better than Hou/Oak etc... that suggests this plan would make us a contender without some help from outside the org such as FA signings. 
I mean you cant trade ANY of those guys that you are counting on so... again i ask, how does this suddenly make us good enough when this magic happens?

We went from 19 to 14 using your example in just one year. By 2021, this could easily be a top 5 system. 

But not if we trade all of them.

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 minute ago, floplag said:

Fine, find me ANY source that suggest we have a top 10 farm or better than Hou/Oak etc... that suggests this plan would make us a contender without some help from outside the org such as FA signings. 

No one is arguing we are a top 10 farm....

What everyone is pointing out is that the farm finally has usable pieces, to add to an already solid core.

And no one is arguing not signing free agents or making trades. What is being mentioned is simply not blowing our wad in FAs simply to feel like were doing something.

We have 30 mill to spend. And few prospects to trade that will land us a real star player....would say machado for that 30 mill, and flipping adell and company for realmuto make you excited for 2019?

It would pump me up. But id dread 2020 and beyond. Especially when realmuto WILL test free agency in 2 years...

[floplag]

Just now, tdawg87 said:

We went from 19 to 14 using your example in just one year. By 2021, this could easily be a top 5 system. 

But not if we trade all of them.

a top 5 system, meaning still another 2-3 years before being competitive.  Are you now planning for 2024?  

[tdawg87]

Just now, floplag said:

i never suggested depleting it, but doing nothing for 2 years and still not being significantly better makes even less sense wouldnt you say?

We aren't really going to do nothing. Eppler will make trades and sign Free Agents. He's just not getting Harper or Machado or Keuchel and probably not even Corbin.

[floplag]

Just now, ten ocho recon scout said:

No one is arguing we are a top 10 farm....

What everyone is pointing out is that the farm finally has usable pieces, to add to an already solid core.

And no one is arguing not signing free agents or making trades. What is being mentioned is simply not blowing our wad in FAs simply to feel like were doing something.

We have 30 mill to spend. And few prospects to trade that will land us a real star player....would say machado for that 30 mill, and flipping adell and company for realmuto make you excited for 2019?

It would pump me up. But id dread 2020 and beyond. Especially when realmuto WILL test free agency in 2 years...

i never asked for Machado or Harper, and i would as ive said many times prefer not to trade Adell nor do i think we would have to for the one guy im targeting in trade. 

[tdawg87]

Just now, floplag said:

a top 5 system, meaning still another 2-3 years before being competitive.  Are you now planning for 2024?  

What?

A top 5 farm system implies you have a significant amount of MLB ready talent AND trade pieces. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 minute ago, floplag said:

a top 5 system, meaning still another 2-3 years before being competitive.  Are you now planning for 2024?  

? It doesnt matter where we rank farmwise, its the org as a whole.

Again, if adell hits by 2020, and 2B is sorted out, the MLB team is completely different. That will allow FA to fix what we dont have in house.

Right now there are too many holes to trade any of the few plus prospects we have. Were not 1 player away...

[floplag]

1 minute ago, tdawg87 said:

What?

A top 5 farm system implies you have a significant amount of MLB ready talent AND trade pieces. 

Not necessarily at all, our best parts are not ML ready

[tdawg87]

1 minute ago, floplag said:

Not necessarily at all, our best parts are not ML ready

Which is why we don't have a top 5 system.

[floplag]

1 minute ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

? It doesnt matter where we rank farmwise, its the org as a whole.

Again, if adell hits by 2020, and 2B is sorted out, the MLB team is completely different. That will allow FA to fix what we dont have in house.

Right now there are too many holes to trade any of the few plus prospects we have. Were not 1 player away...

It matters if those we are chasing are still ranked higher.
How do we count on our farm to make us better than them when theirs is still better?
Our 2 direct competitors in our division both have better farms, right now. 
Explain to me the logic that somehow makes us better than them in 2 years when they are better now and have a better farm?  Tell me how that happens?

[ten ocho recon scout]

3 minutes ago, floplag said:

i never asked for Machado or Harper, and i would as ive said many times prefer not to trade Adell nor do i think we would have to for the one guy im targeting in trade. 

None of us want to trade adell. But hes one of the few guys whos going to bring someone back thats a sure shot improvement.

I think youre wishing for realmuto. We all are. But as great of a fit as he will be, theres still the issue of him switching leagues, and wed have a "window" with him as well.

Personally id prefer grandal, unless you can swindle miami. But theres several other clubs that can outbid us for him if we dont want to give up good value.

 

[Second Base]

I don't know if this helps or not, but I'll leave it here just in case. 

ETA on Angels Prospects

2019: Matt Thaiss, Luis Rengifo, Griffin Canning, Jose Suarez, Jake Jewel, Brett Hanewich

2020: Jo Adell, Jahmai Jones, Pat Sandoval, Luis Pena, Joe Gatto

2021: Brandon Marsh, Aaron Hernandez, Chris Rodriguez, Jose Soriano

2022: Kevin Maitan, Jordyn Adams, Jeremiah Jackson, D'Shawn Knowles, Trent Deveaux

#SteadyStream

[floplag]

2 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

None of us want to trade adell. But hes one of the few guys whos going to bring someone back thats a sure shot improvement.

I think youre wishing for realmuto. We all are. But as great of a fit as he will be, theres still the issue of him switching leagues, and wed have a "window" with him as well.

Personally id prefer grandal, unless you can swindle miami. But theres several other clubs that can outbid us for him if we dont want to give up good value.

 

i would be fine with that too... if it drops to Ramos i might prefer bringing back Maldonao and upgrading elsewhere.