Question regarding Pujols

[Docwaukee]

14 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Jeff, the only thing to be determined is how a restructured deal is treated under the lux tax calculations.

You keep saying a "deal to circumvent" wont fly.  No kidding.

But you don't seem interested in aknowledging a deal that would not circumvent anything.

 

If they buy Albert out for less than the total value of what remains on the contract, then that amount is applied to CBT number pro rata over the remaining years of the deal or they can choose to assign it to an individual season.  

let's say they want to buy him out after 2019.  They would still owe him 59 mil but have a cap hit of 24m per season.  If they cut 20 mill off then the cap hit would be 240-20=220/10 or 22m for each of those season although I do think they could disproportionately assign more of that 2m per to one season.  Like 24 in 2020 and 20 in 2021.  But they cannot defer the cap hit beyond those seasons.  

above is a summary of what I took from the CBT section of the collective bargaining agreement below:

(6) Deferred Compensation (a) Definition “Deferred Compensation” shall mean any Salary payable to a Player pursuant to a Uniform Player’s Contract in a Contract Year after the last championship season for which the Contract requires services as a baseball player to be rendered. (b) Attribution (i) Deferred Compensation shall be included in a Player’s Salary as if paid in the championship season to which it is attributed under a Uniform Player’s Contract. If a Contract does not 122 attribute Deferred Compensation, the Contract shall be treated as if the Deferred Compensation was attributed equally to each of the Guaranteed Years in the Contract. (ii) If the Deferred Compensation is to be paid with interest at an effective rate that is within one and one-half percentage points of the Imputed Loan Interest Rate for the first Contract Year covered by the Contract, then the Deferred Compensation shall be included at its stated value. Otherwise, the Deferred Compensation shall be included at its present value in the season to which it is attributed, said present value to be calculated by increasing any such payments by the Contract’s stated interest rate, if any, and then reducing such payments back to their present value by applying as a discount rate the Imputed Loan Interest Rate for the first Contract Year covered by the Contract. If the terms of a Contract are confirmed by the Association and the Office of the Commissioner before the Imputed Loan Interest Rate for the first Contract Year covered by the contract is available, the Imputed Loan Interest Rate shall be the annual “Federal mid-term rate” as defined in section 1274(d) of the Internal Revenue Code for the month preceding the month in which terms are confirmed. If a Uniform Player’s Contract uses the date or year in which a Player retires as a triggering event for the commencement of payment of the Deferred Compensation, it will be assumed for purposes of calculating Salary under this Article only that the Player retires on the day that he reaches age 40 or at the end of the Contract, whichever is later. (c) An “Annuity Compensation Arrangement” is an agreement in a Uniform Player’s Contract whereby the Club promises to purchase an annuity to pay the Player after he is no longer required to render services as a baseball player under such Uniform Player’s Contract. (i) The portion of the cost of the annuity to be paid by the Club while the Player is required to render services as a baseball player under the Contract shall be included as Salary for the Contract Year in which such cost is to be paid. (ii) The portion of the cost of the annuity instrument to be paid by the Club after the Player is no longer required to render services as a baseball player under such Contract, if any, shall be 123 treated as Deferred Compensation attributable pro rata over the Guaranteed Years of the Contract at its present value as calculated pursuant to paragraph (6)(b) above. Any compensation that the Player is scheduled to receive pursuant to such Annuity Compensation Arrangement shall not be considered Salary or Deferred Compensation.

[Jeff Fletcher]

56 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Jeff, the only thing to be determined is how a restructured deal is treated under the lux tax calculations.

You keep saying a "deal to circumvent" wont fly.  No kidding.

But you don't seem interested in aknowledging a deal that would not circumvent anything.

 

So you don't think that if the Angels have a $24M figure on their luxury tax payroll, and suddenly it's restructured so it's a $4M figure or something, that other owners would view that as circumventing?

[Dtwncbad]

14 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

So you don't think that if the Angels have a $24M figure on their luxury tax payroll, and suddenly it's restructured so it's a $4M figure or something, that other owners would view that as circumventing?

I didn't say that.  I said however the CBA treats it is how it will be treated.

If the CBA says you get no relief in your lux tax calculations then so be it.

The Angels would be no worse off in terms of the lux tax, but they would clear a roster spot, and have ACTUAL cash flow relief in real payroll.  And again YOU were the one that told all of us that Arte will make spending decisions on actual payroll.

Your position keeps requiring that I am suggesting breaking rules.  I have not suggested breaking one rule.

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Dtwncbad said:

I didn't say that.  I said however the CBA treats it is how it will be treated.

If the CBA says you get no relief in your lux tax calculations then so be it.

The Angels would be no worse off in terms of the lux tax, but they would clear a roster spot, and have ACTUAL cash flow relief in real payroll.  And again YOU were the one that told all of us that Arte will make spending decisions on actual payroll.

Your position keeps requiring that I am suggesting breaking rules.  I have not suggested breaking one rule.

Then how bout you look up those rules and post them here.  Others are doing that for you, why don’t you do it to show how your idea would work.  

[Dtwncbad]

31 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

If they buy Albert out for less than the total value of what remains on the contract, then that amount is applied to CBT number pro rata over the remaining years of the deal or they can choose to assign it to an individual season.  

let's say they want to buy him out after 2019.  They would still owe him 59 mil but have a cap hit of 24m per season.  If they cut 20 mill off then the cap hit would be 240-20=220/10 or 22m for each of those season although I do think they could disproportionately assign more of that 2m per to one season.  Like 24 in 2020 and 20 in 2021.  But they cannot defer the cap hit beyond those seasons.  

above is a summary of what I took from the CBT section of the collective bargaining agreement below:

(6) Deferred Compensation (a) Definition “Deferred Compensation” shall mean any Salary payable to a Player pursuant to a Uniform Player’s Contract in a Contract Year after the last championship season for which the Contract requires services as a baseball player to be rendered. (b) Attribution (i) Deferred Compensation shall be included in a Player’s Salary as if paid in the championship season to which it is attributed under a Uniform Player’s Contract. If a Contract does not 122 attribute Deferred Compensation, the Contract shall be treated as if the Deferred Compensation was attributed equally to each of the Guaranteed Years in the Contract. (ii) If the Deferred Compensation is to be paid with interest at an effective rate that is within one and one-half percentage points of the Imputed Loan Interest Rate for the first Contract Year covered by the Contract, then the Deferred Compensation shall be included at its stated value. Otherwise, the Deferred Compensation shall be included at its present value in the season to which it is attributed, said present value to be calculated by increasing any such payments by the Contract’s stated interest rate, if any, and then reducing such payments back to their present value by applying as a discount rate the Imputed Loan Interest Rate for the first Contract Year covered by the Contract. If the terms of a Contract are confirmed by the Association and the Office of the Commissioner before the Imputed Loan Interest Rate for the first Contract Year covered by the contract is available, the Imputed Loan Interest Rate shall be the annual “Federal mid-term rate” as defined in section 1274(d) of the Internal Revenue Code for the month preceding the month in which terms are confirmed. If a Uniform Player’s Contract uses the date or year in which a Player retires as a triggering event for the commencement of payment of the Deferred Compensation, it will be assumed for purposes of calculating Salary under this Article only that the Player retires on the day that he reaches age 40 or at the end of the Contract, whichever is later. (c) An “Annuity Compensation Arrangement” is an agreement in a Uniform Player’s Contract whereby the Club promises to purchase an annuity to pay the Player after he is no longer required to render services as a baseball player under such Uniform Player’s Contract. (i) The portion of the cost of the annuity to be paid by the Club while the Player is required to render services as a baseball player under the Contract shall be included as Salary for the Contract Year in which such cost is to be paid. (ii) The portion of the cost of the annuity instrument to be paid by the Club after the Player is no longer required to render services as a baseball player under such Contract, if any, shall be 123 treated as Deferred Compensation attributable pro rata over the Guaranteed Years of the Contract at its present value as calculated pursuant to paragraph (6)(b) above. Any compensation that the Player is scheduled to receive pursuant to such Annuity Compensation Arrangement shall not be considered Salary or Deferred Compensation.

You can't buy out a player for less than what is already owed.

[Dtwncbad]

Just now, Stradling said:

Then how bout you look up those rules and post them here.  Others are doing that for you, why don’t you do it to show how your idea would work.  

Seriously what are you talking about????

Players have restructured contracts to receive payments into the future.  The player never gives up any money but the owner gets immediate cash flow relief.

How about you tell me how they did that but how the Angels can't.

You can't.

[T.G.]

Now that Scioscia has moved on.... this is going to be the new daily focus of AW.  Good times.

[Dtwncbad]

49 minutes ago, Lou said:

and what type of deal would that be?

Uh how about they carefully mirror how other teams did it correctly.

Are the Angels the only team that cannot have future payments due to players?

[mtangelsfan]

Just now, Dtwncbad said:

Uh how about they carefully mirror how other teams did it correctly.

Are the Angels the only team that cannot have future payments due to players?

I am guessing you don't want them to extend his contract, you are wanting to buy it out, yes?

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Dtwncbad said:

Seriously what are you talking about????

Players have restructured contracts to receive payments into the future.  The player never gives up any money but the owner gets immediate cash flow relief.

How about you tell me how they did that but how the Angels can't.

You can't.

What I am talking about is you keep arguing whether or not they can get real salary relief.  Research to see if this is something that can happen in today’s baseball.  Look at what has happened and look at what is stated in the collective bargaining agreement.  Then post that here as opposed to how you are currently debating this.  I have no idea what is possible, so I won’t debate it with you.  I did however post what I think could happen.  

[Lou]

5 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Seriously what are you talking about????

Players have restructured contracts to receive payments into the future.  The player never gives up any money but the owner gets immediate cash flow relief.

How about you tell me how they did that but how the Angels can't.

You can't.

this obviously happens much more than I recall.

who are all these players that restructured their current contracts?

[Jeff Fletcher]

7 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

I didn't say that.  I said however the CBA treats it is how it will be treated.

If the CBA says you get no relief in your lux tax calculations then so be it.

The Angels would be no worse off in terms of the lux tax, but they would clear a roster spot, and have ACTUAL cash flow relief in real payroll.  And again YOU were the one that told all of us that Arte will make spending decisions on actual payroll.

Your position keeps requiring that I am suggesting breaking rules.  I have not suggested breaking one rule.

As for the luxury tax: I'm suggesting that the rules most likely already prohibit that, because otherwise it would be a pretty obvious loophole. This isn't rocket science.

As for the PA and the actual cash flow, I suppose you could do it. I honestly am not sure what the sides would agree to that work for both of them. Would Pujols accept enough of a deferment to make a dent? Would the Angels be willing to pay the interest rate that would make Pujols accept it? How does it help Pujols to get his money over the next X years instead of getting it now? These are questions none of us can answer.

 

[Lou]

5 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Uh how about they carefully mirror how other teams did it correctly.

Are the Angels the only team that cannot have future payments due to players?

can you please give me examples of other teams doing this since the inception of the luxury tax, salary cap and CBA? 

thanks 

[Jeff Fletcher]

1 minute ago, Lou said:

can you please give me examples of other teams doing this since the inception of the luxury tax, salary cap and CBA? 

thanks 

Honestly, I can't either. Everyone talks about Bobby Bonilla but I can't think of any recent example.

The famous A-Rod "buyout" was really just a nice PR spin on releasing him and still paying him all the money anyway.

[Dtwncbad]

2 minutes ago, Lou said:

can you please give me examples of other teams doing this since the inception of the luxury tax, salary cap and CBA? 

thanks 

If I wanted to sit here and do homework to make you comfortable?

How about you use the internet and search for mlb contracts that were restructured?

[Stradling]

13 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Seriously what are you talking about????

Players have restructured contracts to receive payments into the future.  The player never gives up any money but the owner gets immediate cash flow relief.

How about you tell me how they did that but how the Angels can't.

You can't.

I didn’t say that

#lifetime

[Dtwncbad]

14 minutes ago, mtangelsfan said:

I am guessing you don't want them to extend his contract, you are wanting to buy it out, yes?

No.  Restructure with deferred payments.  How does the CBA mathematically treat a deferred payment deal?

How is Bret Saberhagens money every year treated? 

[Lou]

3 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

If I wanted to sit here and do homework to make you comfortable?

How about you use the internet and search for mlb contracts that were restructured?

I did and couldn't find any. You made the (as of yet) unsubstantiated claim, so I was merely asking you to back it up. 

If you can't, just say so and we can all ignore your claim from this point on.

thank you. 

[Dtwncbad]

3 minutes ago, Lou said:

I did and couldn't find any. You made the (as of yet) unsubstantiated claim, so I was merely asking you to back it up. 

If you can't, just say so and we can all ignore your claim from this point on.

thank you. 

What unsubstantiated claim did I make?

That a team and player can defer salary?

 

[Dtwncbad]

Is there a new rule?  Or were the saberhagan and Bonilla deals done against the rules? 

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Dtwncbad said:

Is there a new rule?  Or were the saberhagan and Bonilla deals done against the rules? 

This is an example of what we are talking about.  Do your own work and let us know what you find.  

[Stradling]

That was 20 years ago and one or two collective bargaining agreements ago.  

[Lou]

6 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

What unsubstantiated claim did I make?

That a team and player can defer salary?

 

that a lot of teams have done it with a player's contract 

[Lou]

lol @ is there a new rule ?

[Jeff Fletcher]

9 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Is there a new rule?  Or were the saberhagan and Bonilla deals done against the rules? 

Those were about 3 CBAs ago.

I can't think of an example of any kind of restructured deal anytime in the past decade.