This team is a pathetic sh** show.

[ten ocho recon scout]

2 hours ago, Blarg said:

If they just play league average it is a huge upgrade over what is stumbling out on the field now. 

 

Exactly. Im ok keeping them on the farm...if the people smarter than me KNOW they arent ready (in terms of hurting the rookies, not the big league club). But if theyre at least ready to try the majors out, dump the dead wood, bring up the kids and at worst, get a glimpse of if we have more grant greens, or actual everyday players in the wings. 

[Amazing Larry]

3 hours ago, Lou said:

I still try and watch every game, but not all 9 innings. Last night I watched the first 2 and the 7th and 8th. I  don't watch because I think we're making the playoffs. I watch because I like the Angels and love watching Trout and Simmons play. 

I think what it all boils down to is that I'm a better fan than you 

Well of course. Duh.

[Dtwncbad]

28 minutes ago, AngelsFanSince86 said:

I think its because people keep saying to graduate them and you keep saying something along the lines of, "I don't want to count on that".  Clearly we can't count on anything that is an unknown.  That is why these guys need to be given a shot.  Clearly it's going to take more than our minor league depth to compete.  

It is going to take a mix of both though.  It would have been nice to have Cron at first, but that ship has sailed.  So now we have to hope one of our minor league guys can hit because the FA market for 1B is pretty weak.  Between Fletcher and Cozart we would have 2B and 3B somewhat covered, but they need someone else preferably with more power.  If Ward can produce it would go a long way towards solidifying the infield.  Then there is RF.  Kole has figured it out it seems, but it is probably worth it to upgrade.  Harper? AJ Pollock?

There isn't much in the way of front line SP except maybe Keuchel.  RP can be had but likely for a decent price.

For me, to have confidence in 2019, the Angels need one of Thaiss, Ward, or Rengifo to show they can produce at the MLB level.  On top of that they need to sign one proven, veteran SP that doesn't have 1500+ IP in his career.  They also need a closer (Kimbrel would be awesome) and one or two other RP.  They also need to sign Harper (unless he's still demanding over his real value), Machado if he'll play 3B, or even Pollock who is a more consistent hitter than Kole and is also a GG caliber CFer.  And then they could move Kole to fill in depth somewhere.  If he keeps up his resurgence for the rest of the season then he will have a fair amount of value.

However, part of this all coming together is having one of our minor league guys contribute.  

Edit:  Also note Cron's numbers in Tampa Bay.  He's been what most thought he could be.  Angels just never let him play it out.  They sent him down every time he struggled.  What kind of message does that send the minor leaguers?  For a game that is so mental you should instill confidence in your young guys.  The veterans are the ones who need the stern message of "produce or get out".  This organization has everything flip flopped.

 

I am very happy that the Angels have some bodies getting closer to contributing.

I do not want to punt 2019.

I personally don't see how the Angels can possibly be much better in 2019 without getting help from a significant trade or free agent signing.

[Blarg]

Regardless of what you want, 2019 is still going to be a learning curve year. There is not enough cap space to fill all voids, some have to come internally.

[Lou]

59 minutes ago, Lhalo said:

Well of course. Duh.

I neglected to mention the #1 reason why I still watch games . . . 

CFB is stil 31 days away. 

[Chuck]

15 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

All Moreno cares about is 3 million fans.   The winning is secondary.

Well this was taken by @Adam last night. 

Memo to Arte Moreno: You're not going to get 3 million fans again unless you put a winning team on the field. 

[AngelsFanSince86]

52 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

I am very happy that the Angels have some bodies getting closer to contributing.

I do not want to punt 2019.

I personally don't see how the Angels can possibly be much better in 2019 without getting help from a significant trade or free agent signing.

The problem is there aren't enough good FA options even if we were willing to spend the money (and the FAs decided to sign here).  Most are 32+ and the ones that aren't do not provide enough consistent production to be worth it.

That's why it is necessary to bring these guys up this season to see if they will be worth giving consistent playing time next year.  Otherwise they will have to sign an inconsistent 32+ veteran who will likely give us another round of frustration after they don't match the one good year they had.  

In order not to punt 2019 they need to see if these guys can play.  Ward is 24 and Thaiss is 23.  If they aren't ready to give it a shot now then they will never be ready.

[Mark68]

Fire everyone!

 

No, but we really need to see the likes of Valbuena, Marte, or Kinsler at this point? Does Pujols still need to be a nearly full-time player?

This team this season is like the Confederacy--a lost cause. And like the Confederacy, this team was never as solid as it appeared and was bound to lose to a much stronger juggernaut with superior manpower and weaponry.

Might as well be rid of the dead weight and bring the kids up. Let's see what they can do...

[Dtwncbad]

Machado 10/$300, with player opt out at age 30. . .or whatever it takes.

There is enough money coming off to afford that, and they just need him.

The guy is 26.

Then there is very little pressure to get much from Fletcher/Ward/Thaiss/Hermosillo. . .

And then you have enough prospects to trade for a frontline starter.

Now how does 2019 look?

Or we can all say Hamilton and Pujols were mistakes and be gun shy and just sit tight through how many more .500 seasons and then watch Trout leave.

Did I mention Machado is 26?

 

 

[T.G.]

[Slegnaac]

Bringing "The kids" up is going to require making a space on the 25 man roster.  It is easy to say DFA Marte, Valbuena, Kinsler, etc., but once those guys are gone you may not have a chance to get them back.  If the Kids fail or get injured who do they turn to?  Also who fills these open spots at SLC?

I don't expect to see any Kids before September 1st when they can be added to the 25 man roster.

[AngelsFanSince86]

1 hour ago, Dtwncbad said:

Machado 10/$300, with player opt out at age 30. . .or whatever it takes.

There is enough money coming off to afford that, and they just need him.

The guy is 26.

Then there is very little pressure to get much from Fletcher/Ward/Thaiss/Hermosillo. . .

And then you have enough prospects to trade for a frontline starter.

Now how does 2019 look?

Or we can all say Hamilton and Pujols were mistakes and be gun shy and just sit tight through how many more .500 seasons and then watch Trout leave.

Did I mention Machado is 26?

 

 

Yeah that is all predicated on him being willing to play 3B.  Who knows, maybe after a full season of being below average defensively he will realize he is an overall more valuable player at 3B and the chance to play next to Simmons will entice him.  Machado would definitely be #1 on my wish list.  But we still need production from these young guys for depth reasons.  Plus regardless of how hard they go at Machado there is no guarantee the Angels could sign him for a variety of reasons (location, underperforming team, desire to play SS, etc.).  If he signs elsewhere there has to be a backup plan.  

Or we can just keep trotting out Valbuena, Marte, etc.   Then this offseason if/when we fail to sign Machado we can instead go with Moustakas at 3B or Dozier at 2B and stick Cozart at the other position.  Then when those guys fail to live up to whatever expectations they are given they will continue to be trotted out because they are getting paid 10-15 million a year and the cycle of mediocrity will continue.  

It would be great to sign Machado, sign Pollock, trade Calhoun for RP, SP, or infield depth, sign Kimbrel, and add a couple more solid RP. But, even if they actually tried their hardest and opened up Arte's pocketbook enough to outbid anyone, there is still no guarantee they would be able to any of those things with the exception of adding bullpen pieces.

[GrittyVeterans]

1 hour ago, Dtwncbad said:

Machado 10/$300, with player opt out at age 30. . .or whatever it takes.

There is enough money coming off to afford that, and they just need him.

The guy is 26.

Then there is very little pressure to get much from Fletcher/Ward/Thaiss/Hermosillo. . .

And then you have enough prospects to trade for a frontline starter.

Now how does 2019 look?

Or we can all say Hamilton and Pujols were mistakes and be gun shy and just sit tight through how many more .500 seasons and then watch Trout leave.

Did I mention Machado is 26?

 

 

Yup. I fear not landing Machado will wind up like the time we didn't get Beltre. He'll go to some team we hate like the Red Sox or Dodgers and just rake for the next decade.

[AngelsFanSince86]

34 minutes ago, Slegnaac said:

Bringing "The kids" up is going to require making a space on the 25 man roster.  It is easy to say DFA Marte, Valbuena, Kinsler, etc., but once those guys are gone you may not have a chance to get them back.  If the Kids fail or get injured who do they turn to?  Also who fills these open spots at SLC?

I don't expect to see any Kids before September 1st when they can be added to the 25 man roster.

They still have Cowart, JMF, and Fontana in addition to the guys that we'd like to see given a real shot: Ward, Rengifo, and Thaiss.

The point is that Marte and Valbuena, and Kinsler (to a much lesser extent because of his glove) have all failed.  They can't really do that much worse than those guys.  And the point is to give them time.  What do you consider failing?  Like I've stated, Kyle Tucker is failing and today will be his 14th game in a row hitting .160.  You have to give these guys consistent playing time to see if they can overcome it.  Mike Trout basically failed in his first taste of MLB (40 games).

You are probably right, but that's what is sad.  Why does it matter if they fail?  Shouldn't we have that happen in a lost season?

[Dtwncbad]

49 minutes ago, AngelsFanSince86 said:

They still have Cowart, JMF, and Fontana in addition to the guys that we'd like to see given a real shot: Ward, Rengifo, and Thaiss.

The point is that Marte and Valbuena, and Kinsler (to a much lesser extent because of his glove) have all failed.  They can't really do that much worse than those guys.  And the point is to give them time.  What do you consider failing?  Like I've stated, Kyle Tucker is failing and today will be his 14th game in a row hitting .160.  You have to give these guys consistent playing time to see if they can overcome it.  Mike Trout basically failed in his first taste of MLB (40 games).

You are probably right, but that's what is sad.  Why does it matter if they fail?  Shouldn't we have that happen in a lost season?

And how many of the six specific players you mention will ultimately be major league regulars?

I saw maybe one.  Two will be bench players and the other three won't make it.

That's my opinion from that group anyway.

 

[fan_since79]

1 hour ago, GrittyVeterans said:

Yup. I fear not landing Machado will wind up like the time we didn't get Beltre. He'll go to some team we hate like the Red Sox or Dodgers and just rake for the next decade.

A lot of people thought Cespedes would rake for a decade and it was a mistake not to get him. Sure, he's been good, but there's been a lot of injuries, and now he's out for 8-10 months with probable surgery on BOTH feet.

Anytime you sign a free agent there's a good deal of unknown.

[GrittyVeterans]

6 minutes ago, fan_since79 said:

A lot of people thought Cespedes would rake for a decade and it was a mistake not to get him. Sure, he's been good, but there's been a lot of injuries, and now he's out for 8-10 months with probable surgery on BOTH feet.

Anytime you sign a free agent there's a good deal of unknown.

That comparison makes no sense. Machado is 26 and Cespedes was 32 at least I believe

[kevinb]

4 hours ago, Chuckster70 said:

Well this was taken by @Adam last night. 

Memo to Arte Moreno: You're not going to get 3 million fans again unless you put a winning team on the field. 

This is every game 

[fan_since79]

No matter how many people ultimately show up to the stadium, the team is still 2nd among AL teams in attendance this year.

They had almost 34,000 Paid last night.

[Lou]

5 hours ago, Chuckster70 said:

Well this was taken by @Adam last night. 

Memo to Arte Moreno: You're not going to get 3 million fans again unless you put a winning team on the field. 

who is that pitching?

[Lou]

2 hours ago, GrittyVeterans said:

Yup. I fear not landing Machado will wind up like the time we didn't get Beltre. He'll go to some team we hate like the Red Sox or Dodgers and just rake for the next decade.

he's a free agent in a few months 

[Roy Hobbs]

3 minutes ago, Lou said:

who is that pitching?

Wait, you mean there will be more people if the game is actually being played.

[Lou]

Machado with the dodgers:

.250 BA 

.333/.375/.708

0 HR

1 RBI 

 

dodgers are 3-3 since the trade 

[beatlesrule]

21 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

Are you sure? I'm guessing all Arte cares about is revenue, and the feeling that the organization is going in a positive direction. Presumably he's smart enough to learn from his big mistakes (Wells, Pujols, Hamilton) and realize that when the boat is rotten you have to rebuild and not just patch.

That said, the major league team has some good parts that they can build around. With some canny moves this deadline and offseason, and some luck next year with health, the team can compete for a wildcard next year.

As long as they don't trade the future for the present. They don't have enough major league talent to do that. The only way this franchise becomes a powerhouse is with patience and building from within. It might yet be 3-4 years before they're a legit perennial contender. 

I am more commenting about you suggesting to field offers on Upton and Calhoun.  That's just too much because this org doesn't draft very well and so there is no guarantee the young guys they put in the outfield will outproduce or at least equal those 2.  I wanted a rebuild at both the 2016 and 2017 deadline because it would have likely meant the team would be in a better position the following year.  2016 was the best time to do it but we all know that didn't happen.  This next week will be very telling for sure because I still don't think Moreno goes for a rebuild or even a semi rebuild.  He's kind of dug his own grave and it's going to be very interesting to see if he is able to get his team to the playoffs without going over the tax in the last 2 years Trout is still under contract.  Do you think the majority of fans realize the Angels are not making the playoffs and will still go to games if they only recognize a couple of players?  Enough to hit 3 million? 

I don't know if you can get much for Upton anyway without paying a chunk of his salary.  Dude is atrocious with RISP and still has 4 1/2 years left for like 90 million or whatever.  Calhoun is well liked so not sure how that would sit with most fans and has had a terrible year overall so that will hurt his value.  Trading away a lot of the pen means they need to replace them either through the farm or FA so will they do that enough to be competitive next year?  Arte is trying to be the Spurs but his brain trust is nowhere near that smart.

Fans will still go to the park to see Trout, Ohtani and Simmons but as long as Scioscia keeps batting Simmons 2nd(where he is clearly not comfortable) and playing Pujols and others ahead of Ohtani, it's not as enjoyable as it can be and trading away most of the team likely hurts attendance despite those 3 guys.  Fletcher might soon be a guy worth coming to the park to watch if he keeps playing well.  I guess we will know within a week.

Oh and I think Machado gets at least 350 million.

Edit* I see Simmons is hitting 6th tonight. Hopefully that means the experiment is over.

[AngelsFanSince86]

13 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

And how many of the six specific players you mention will ultimately be major league regulars?

I saw maybe one.  Two will be bench players and the other three won't make it.

That's my opinion from that group anyway.

 

Right, that was more in response to another poster. Slegnaac was saying that if they bring up Ward, Thaiss, Rengifo then they have to do something with Valbuena, Marte, Kinsler. And he said what do if the new guys don't produce or get injured. What I was saying is that for the remainder of this year there are other options. Kinsler would probably get you a reasonable return on the trade market because of his defense and the fact he's posted a .750 OPS in his last 50 games. Then you just release Marte and Valbuena and roll with the other guys I mentioned. 

You're right, JMF, Fontana, and Cowart probably won't give you anything, but their production will likely equal or better Valbuena/Marte. It's Ward, Thaiss, and Rengifo that you want to see. If just one of them breaks out wouldn't it be worth it to do all that to find out? Heck, if they all fail it would be worth it to find out.