MLB players frustrated with owners. Possible collusion?

[IheartLA]

12 minutes ago, stormngt said:

How many employees in other markets invest in their development like minor league Baseball?

I'm a CPA currently working for a BIG4 accounting firm, but I can say when I was in university all the top firms invested massive amounts of money in the universities which now seems very sketchy. They viewed recent graduates at top universities like Ucla/Usc as feeder schools where they can get cheap, smart labor that they could exploit. 18-22 year old kids were filled with propaganda from professors/recruiters of how great it is to work for these mega companies, which they had to do b/c so much of the program was funded by them. No overtime, low salary, your first few years are absolute HELL.

Honestly coming from this type of background and seeing the entire "scheme" I see LOTS of similarities. The MLB clubs are investing in Latin America like a factory. With a population boom, thousands of kids are funneled into these academies where maybe 1% will make it. The club will throw the 99% away like trash. We see Altuve but no one sees the thousands of kids that were thrown to the side. The difference between this and a regular American athlete is the exact same as mega companies bringing in cheap labor south of the border to replace domestic workers.

MLB teams know there are MANY players from Latin America that could be regular everyday players that will play for a fraction of the cost. This is the entire process from initial signing bonus, cost to cultivate the talent, lack of education making them easy for agents/teams to exploit when it comes to extensions, etc. 

Some agents have touched on it but there are too many good players right now in MLB. Boras mentioned how every team now has 5 choices it seems and there is a supply issue. To correct this there needs to be chances to the salary floor/arbitration to adjust for the new realities in the game. 

[Ohtaniland]

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, eaterfan said:

Championships aren't made or not made like that. Championships are made by collecting the most talent and by getting a little lucky. A team is going to win the WS every year whether they spend $60 million or $230 million. The only difference is how much the owners put in their pocket.

Sure, no one held a gun to his head, but he his market rights were restricted to the point where he had very little leverage to work a fair deal. How about you answer for Vlad Jr. or Kris Bryant? I noticed you skipped them.

In the end it doesn't even out. The owners make huge surplus revenue off of them. 

Am I missing something?  Why is Vlad Jr under paid?  Has he even had  a MLB at bat?

[stormngt]

28 minutes ago, IheartLA said:

I'm a CPA currently working for a BIG4 accounting firm, but I can say when I was in university all the top firms invested massive amounts of money in the universities which now seems very sketchy. They viewed recent graduates at top universities like Ucla/Usc as feeder schools where they can get cheap, smart labor that they could exploit. 18-22 year old kids were filled with propaganda from professors/recruiters of how great it is to work for these mega companies, which they had to do b/c so much of the program was funded by them. No overtime, low salary, your first few years are absolute HELL.

Honestly coming from this type of background and seeing the entire "scheme" I see LOTS of similarities. The MLB clubs are investing in Latin America like a factory. With a population boom, thousands of kids are funneled into these academies where maybe 1% will make it. The club will throw the 99% away like trash. We see Altuve but no one sees the thousands of kids that were thrown to the side. The difference between this and a regular American athlete is the exact same as mega companies bringing in cheap labor south of the border to replace domestic workers.

MLB teams know there are MANY players from Latin America that could be regular everyday players that will play for a fraction of the cost. This is the entire process from initial signing bonus, cost to cultivate the talent, lack of education making them easy for agents/teams to exploit when it comes to extensions, etc. 

Some agents have touched on it but there are too many good players right now in MLB. Boras mentioned how every team now has 5 choices it seems and there is a supply issue. To correct this there needs to be chances to the salary floor/arbitration to adjust for the new realities in the game. 

Do those firms pay ucla the cost of the training?

[IheartLA]

Just now, ANAHEIMBOB said:

It took the steroid era to bring them back last time. You can only give the fan's  the finger so many times.

Why do fans always treat sports differently, people go to Coachella or a Led Zeppelin concert for entertainment. Same thing with a movie. But athletes always make too much money for sports fans.

[IheartLA]

1 minute ago, stormngt said:

Do those firms pay ucla the cost of the training?

well the university accounting programs are basically funded by them so they have a lot of say in how the process is run. Depends on what you mean by training. Post graduation the firms send all their new hires to basic training before starting full time employment. This is all paid for by the company. 

 

 

[Stradling]

2 hours ago, OHTANILAND said:

Yeah exactly. I’ve always been an incentive type person. Every player should start with a $3M base salary and work for the rest. 200k per home run, 10k per rbi, 10k per SB, 10k per 2B, 15k per 3B, $1k per PA, pitching incentives would also apply for inn’s, k’s, shoutouts, no hitters, 1 hitters, complete games etc...

Having to earn their money would be out of question right? 

This would go a long way towards paying great players less and average players more. The difference between a guy hitting 50 homers and 25 homers would be $5 million. The difference between 50 rbi and 100 rbi would be $500k.  

[Stradling]

1 hour ago, JarsOfClay said:

Simmons signed his extension for security.  I'm sure he knows he could have gotten more as a FA, but he decided not to take that chance.  That's his choice not the fault of the owners.  It wasn't about marketing rights.

And what about Vlad Jr? He hasn't played a single game yet.  As for Bryant, yes he is making less than his value right now, but there will come a time when he gets paid a lot and he doesn't earn it like Pujols, Hamilton, etc.   

 

And the owners chose to sign players like Pujols and Hamilton to those contracts knowing the risk. 

[Ohtaniland]

8 minutes ago, Stradling said:

This would go a long way towards paying great players less and average players more. The difference between a guy hitting 50 homers and 25 homers would be $5 million. The difference between 50 rbi and 100 rbi would be $500k.  

You mean leveling out the playing field. Incentive based contracts would make them work for their money instead of those mail it in guaranteed money deals.

[Stradling]

Show me your list of players that mailed it in?  

Also like I said you’re paying great players a lot less and average players more. 

[Jobu]

24 minutes ago, Stradling said:

And the owners chose to sign players like Pujols and Hamilton to those contracts knowing the risk. 

Yeah I'm not buying this idea that owners and management have suddenly figured out that paying high salaries for decline years is bad business. The Passan article I linked 83 hot takes ago makes the point that the owners have been successful in making putting out a shitty product part of a "winning strategy". So now fans don't completely abandon ship because "hey, look at the Cubs and Astros and Royals."

[Ohtaniland]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

Show me your list of players that mailed it in?  

Also like I said you’re paying great players a lot less and average players more. 

The great players are way over compensated and the incentives are designed to make everyone earn their keep, or keep earning more. Players like Jason Heyward, Carl Crawford, Jacoby Ellsbury, Matt Kemp, Robinson Cano, James Loney, Matt Garza, James Shields, Ryan Howard are what's wrong with today's free agent market. The owners are wiser and the very reason why we signed Cozart and not Moustakas. Too much money!

[Ohtaniland]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

And the owners chose to sign players like Pujols and Hamilton to those contracts knowing the risk. 

That was the last time Arte went "all in".

[Vegas Halo Fan]

Want owners to be more willing to spend? End guaranteed contracts. Make it like the NFL, when if a players gets cut due to poor performance, the contract goes bye-bye (unless part of it was guaranteed up front). If a player starts to suck in year two of a five year deal he is waived, then another player can make the money that was saved.

[Stradling]

45 minutes ago, OHTANILAND said:

The great players are way over compensated and the incentives are designed to make everyone earn their keep, or keep earning more. Players like Jason Heyward, Carl Crawford, Jacoby Ellsbury, Matt Kemp, Robinson Cano, James Loney, Matt Garza, James Shields, Ryan Howard are what's wrong with today's free agent market. The owners are wiser and the very reason why we signed Cozart and not Moustakas. Too much money!

We watch this game to see the great players not to see C.J. Cron or an incredibly average guy.  To say the great players are over compensated ignores that the percentage of revenue that goes to the players is down dramatically in the last couple of decades.  

[Stradling]

4 hours ago, OHTANILAND said:

Yeah exactly. I’ve always been an incentive type person. Every player should start with a $3M base salary and work for the rest. 200k per home run, 10k per rbi, 10k per SB, 10k per 2B, 15k per 3B, $1k per PA, pitching incentives would also apply for inn’s, k’s, shoutouts, no hitters, 1 hitters, complete games etc...

Having to earn their money would be out of question right? 

Using your formula, the one that pays players to perform, gives Trout a little over $11 million and pays Albert about $9.5 million.  Since it’s so heavily weighted towards home runs a guy like Simmons would get paid A LOT less than others because he doesn’t hit many.  Upton would probably be the highest paid Angel. The good news is Arte would make an extra $100 million. 

[Ohtaniland]

19 minutes ago, Stradling said:

We watch this game to see the great players not to see C.J. Cron or an incredibly average guy.  To say the great players are over compensated ignores that the percentage of revenue that goes to the players is down dramatically in the last couple of decades.  

I think a players strike would actually be good for baseball. If the players union is upset because guys like Moustakas and Hosmer can’t get their $150M - $200M deals.....screw them!

[Stradling]

6 minutes ago, OHTANILAND said:

I think a players strike would actually be good for baseball. If the players union is upset because guys like Moustakas and Hosmer can’t get their $150M - $200M deals.....screw them!

Yea I don’t think that’s what’s happening. 

[IheartLA]

2 hours ago, OHTANILAND said:

The great players are way over compensated and the incentives are designed to make everyone earn their keep, or keep earning more. Players like Jason Heyward, Carl Crawford, Jacoby Ellsbury, Matt Kemp, Robinson Cano, James Loney, Matt Garza, James Shields, Ryan Howard are what's wrong with today's free agent market. The owners are wiser and the very reason why we signed Cozart and not Moustakas. Too much money!

What about Posey, Bumgarner, Kershaw, Freeman, Votto, Scherzer. Jose Ramirez, Altuve, Simmons, etc. have all outperformed their extensions. And take Cano off your list, he's performing above average into his deal up to this point.

[Angel Oracle]

15 hours ago, eaterfan said:

Collusion doesn't mean not signing anyone. It means conspiring to keep contracts down. 

When MLB was actually colluding in the 80s they agreed to not sign players for more than 3 years.

And only one above 3 year deal has been signed so far.  Hmm

[jordan]

This talk by the agents sure isn’t going to entice the owners to approve the desired contracts these players want.  Actually, I don’t think any of the big free agents will sign before spring training, perhaps the season at this point.  Being publicly demonized isnt going to make an owner open up their wallets.  

[Angel Oracle]

Bud Norris is a great example of the lesser paid but solid players not being signed.

Aside from 4 bad outings in a 2 week stretch after the ASB, he had great numbers throughout the year.   And it would seem that he hasn’t likely asked for too much?  Yet no one signs him?

Of course, in Eppler’s case, he seems to find good relievers on the cheap anyway.   I wonder if MLB is heading that way (smart GMs finding good relievers on the cheap).

[ten ocho recon scout]

22 hours ago, OHTANILAND said:

Yeah exactly. I’ve always been an incentive type person. Every player should start with a $3M base salary and work for the rest. 200k per home run, 10k per rbi, 10k per SB, 10k per 2B, 15k per 3B, $1k per PA, pitching incentives would also apply for inn’s, k’s, shoutouts, no hitters, 1 hitters, complete games etc...

Having to earn their money would be out of question right? 

The problem with that is youd have giys bitching (and their agents) about playing time, sac hits, innings pitched etc.

I know youre going to say in response the best guy should get the oppurtunities (and i understand that view). The problem is, who gets to hit behind trout? A trout type guy would want to hit leadoff, would bitch about who else is in the lineup, etc etc.

There really isnt a system to make everyone happy.

[Ohtaniland]

45 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

The problem with that is youd have giys bitching (and their agents) about playing time, sac hits, innings pitched etc.

I know youre going to say in response the best guy should get the oppurtunities (and i understand that view). The problem is, who gets to hit behind trout? A trout type guy would want to hit leadoff, would bitch about who else is in the lineup, etc etc.

There really isnt a system to make everyone happy.

Sounds a lot like life. When I see people suggesting that we need to give Trout a $400M - $500M lifetime contract I must ask if people are ready for to pay for higher ticket prices. Does he guarantee to deliver a championship for that price?

I know it’s supply and demand but in 1980 I spent an entire summer going to games sitting in the third row behind the Expos dugout watching guys like Gary Carter, Ellis Valentine, Steve Rogers and Andre Dawson for $2.25 per seat canadian money. Today’s game is so loaded with the greediest owners and players that they’ve forgotten about the average Joe that just wants to take his family to a game. I laughed when I saw the spring training ticket prices this season.

[Brandon]

lol.

what is this base plus commission payment plan?

I don't think people are filling stadiums to see Nordstrom shoe salesman the way they are for baseball players.