Dipoto blew it with Jean Segura

[Angelsjunky]

Let's be honest here. I don't expect him to hit .333/.381/.537 all year and to continue his 9 WAR pace - maybe more like .290+/.800 and 5 WAR. But he is what I thought he could be in a best-case scenario: better than Aybar and Kendrick, and much cheaper.

 

Now I suppose that you could say that given that Pena and Hellweg are likely to be solid bullpen arms or maybe decent starters, the Angels had to part with at least one significant prospect to get Zack Greinke. But here we are: with weak starting pitching, no Greinke, and watching Segura turn into one of the best middle infielders in the game.

 

Why does this keep happening? It seems like an inordinate number of moves over the last few years - whether trades or free agent signings - just don't go the Angels' way. I want to know why. Is it the scouting? Lack of judgement on Jerry Dipoto's part, following the great tradition of Tony Reagins? Arte Moreno playing the puppeteer? The coaching? Indian burial grounds? What? Why is it that the the majority of players who come in from elsewhere struggle as Angels, while the majority of those who leave do well? That's a big problem. Maybe I'm looking at it selectively and it is an illusion, but I don't know...

[nando714]

Ok where would he play?

Can he play third? Aybar & Kendrick signed extensions last season. Not saying Jean is a bad player but he ran into a crowded infield which made him expendable.

[Chuck]

Sorry AJ, I make that trade 10 times out of 10. I liked Segura too, but you're not getting a Grienke type pitcher for anything less than what Dipoto sent Milwaukee way.

This wouldn't even be a thread or discussion if Segura wasn't off to a hot start.

This also wouldn't be a discussion if the Angels made the playoffs. They came awfully close and at the time of the trade they were in a good spot to contend till the end.

[Angelsjunky]

I would have liked to see Segura become a super UT guy like Chone Figgins started out as, spelling people at SS, 2B, and even 3B, giving the Angels a deeper, stronger bench. Chone did that for a year or two and got regular at-bats; if we had Segura this year in the UT role, my bet is that he would easily have got 400+ PA, maybe more. If he had out-played either Howie or Erick, one of those two could have been traded.

 

But the point is that Dipoto seems all-too willing to trade away talented youngsters and go after aging (former) stars. This formula has never worked out for anyone. It didn't work for the Angels in the 80s and early 90s, nor the Yankees in the 80s and most of the 00s. The Yankees have only remained very good because of a deep farm system due to great scouting, and the fact that they have so much money to throw around. But they reached an "over-ripeness" in he early 00s and while managing a World Series win in 2009, have mostly fallen short since 2000.

 

My worry is that the Angels will go the route of the Baltimore Orioles in the late 90s. The Orioles tried to buy a championship, fell short, and were left with an aging team and little young talent and went into a tailspin for a decade plus, and are only just now crawling out of it.

 

The only way out, in my opinion, is if the Angels sit tight and stop selling off prospects (not that they have any left) and try to focus on building a strong farm system. The team they have now is one we're pretty much stuck with for the few years, with perhaps a few tweaks here and there. We'll likely see a rotation of starters coming in through free agency, but I think this is the team of 2013-2015 or so. All we can do is hope that Pujols and Hamilton figure things out, the pitching stabilizes, and Dipoto focuses on the farm.

[Glen]

Greinke wasn't an "aging former star" - he was a star in his prime and a needed piece for a playoff push.  Yes, it sucks seeing Segura doing so well but I was in favor of the trade when it happened so I'm not gonna armchair it now and say it was a bad idea.  

[Angelsjunky]

Chuck, I agree with your entire post (although might have made that trade 7 out of 10 times) but this is the problem: it didn't work. None of it is working. The problem with many of Dipoto's moves, and the sum of the parts is that it isn't succeeding. This goes beyond "hindsight is 20-20" - the proof is in the pudding and Jerry's pudding isn't turning out all that well.

 

Considering that he's only been "in office" about a year and a half I'd be more prone to give it time if it weren't for the fact that he's painted himself into a corner. The fact that in 2016 almost $100 million is tied up in four players in their mid-30s is rather disturbing to me. Or let's take it a step further - here are the ages and salaries of four Angels in 2016:

 

Pujols (36): $25 million

Hamilton (35): $30 million

Wilson (35): $20 million

Weaver (33): $20 million

 

I'm questioning Dipoto's judgement. There is nothing to complain about with regards to the Weaver deal - that looked genius at the time and while there are questions around Jered now, I'd do it again without much hesitation. But why didn't Texas push harder for Wilson? What did they know that Dipoto didn't, or ignored? And what about Hamilton? No one would offer him more than four years, and the Rangers were surprisingly ambivalent about him. What did they know that, again, Dipoto didn't or ignored? And what about Pujols? Why give a 32-year old who had declined in two previous years a 10-year contract worth a quarter of a billion dollars?

 

Should we blame Arte? I don't know. The end result is the same: something is rotten in Denmark, something is broken in this organization and fixing it won't be easy or quick.

[Stradling]

Ok, and in 2017 what is the payroll?

[YouthofToday]

I was against the Greinke trade last year for this very reason.

[Stradling]

I wasn't against the trade because I thought it would get us over the hump. Sadly the slump in August cost us the chance to make it to the playoffs.

[deepdrive]

Chuck, I agree with your entire post (although might have made that trade 7 out of 10 times) but this is the problem: it didn't work. None of it is working. The problem with many of Dipoto's moves, and the sum of the parts is that it isn't succeeding. This goes beyond "hindsight is 20-20" - the proof is in the pudding and Jerry's pudding isn't turning out all that well.

 

Considering that he's only been "in office" about a year and a half I'd be more prone to give it time if it weren't for the fact that he's painted himself into a corner. The fact that in 2016 almost $100 million is tied up in four players in their mid-30s is rather disturbing to me. Or let's take it a step further - here are the ages and salaries of four Angels in 2016:

 

Pujols (36): $25 million

Hamilton (35): $30 million

Wilson (35): $20 million

Weaver (33): $20 million

 

I'm questioning Dipoto's judgement. There is nothing to complain about with regards to the Weaver deal - that looked genius at the time and while there are questions around Jered now, I'd do it again without much hesitation. But why didn't Texas push harder for Wilson? What did they know that Dipoto didn't, or ignored? And what about Hamilton? No one would offer him more than four years, and the Rangers were surprisingly ambivalent about him. What did they know that, again, Dipoto didn't or ignored? And what about Pujols? Why give a 32-year old who had declined in two previous years a 10-year contract worth a quarter of a billion dollars?

 

Should we blame Arte? I don't know. The end result is the same: something is rotten in Denmark, something is broken in this organization and fixing it won't be easy or quick.

I would (and in the past have) questioned posters judgement of how this organization is run. I never believed Reagins called the bigger personal shots and I don't think Dipoto makes the call on the philosophy of how the team is constructed. I think Arte has a lot bigger influence then some people believe.

[YouthofToday]

Agree Arte plays way too large of a role in baseball operations. He has become the Woody Johnson and/or Jerry Jones of MLB. Great.

[Angelsjunky]

If that's true, deepdrive, it doesn't bode well for the future because Arte isn't going anywhere.

[Angelsjunky]

Or worse, Peter Angelos.

[wopphil]

I don't think a trade can be judged entirely at the time it is made. You do have to look a few years down the line. In the case of the greinke trade, it could go down as a colossal mistake, and dipoto probably deserves criticism for it.

[wopphil]

And I have to believe Segura could have played the super utility role being suggested, or maybe converted to third base or right field.

[Angel Oracle]

I just don't like trading top prospects in rental deals for pitchers who are solid but also either aging or not at least close to a sure thing to sign, when the org has very few solid prospects to start with.

Maybe Arte needed to oversee things until the big tv contract was secure. Now though, it's time for him to leave all negotiations to JeDi.

[Senor Piva]

Think the problem was they:

 

a) didn't understand how the new CBA worked, thinking it was like previous years, where they would get a draft pick.  or

 

they overestimated their likihood of being able to re-sign Greinke. 

 

Either way, seems like they didn't do their homework.  With 20/20 hindsight, would have required an extension before giving up someone of Segura's ability, if even for a year

[Senor Piva]

not sure why it switched a to the emoticon.  sorry

[Senor Piva]

b ).  dammit

[Jay]

None of it is working. The problem with many of Dipoto's moves, and the sum of the parts is that it isn't succeeding. This goes beyond "hindsight is 20-20" - the proof is in the pudding and Jerry's pudding isn't turning out all that well.

 

Totally agree.

[Ohtaniland]

And the trade he is most proud of is the acquisition of Chris Iannetta who is now hitting .195 this season and has thrown out only 8% of the base stealers. Iannetta got a 3 year contract extension while Conger looks like a much better hitter while displaying the ability to get base stealers out.

[mancini79]

 Angels were going for a playoff push. When the trade was made, the Angels were only 4 games out and everyone knew pitching needed improvement. That is exactly what he did.

- Segura was expendable since there wasn't going to be a spot for him to play in the near future. He was also ranked in the 50's in most prospect reports.

- It's going to take a lot more than 32 games before I consider Segura as becoming the best MIF in the game.

 

It's tiring that people constantly knock Dipoto for the exact moves most people agreed with at the time. But now that people have the luxury of hindsight, the over criticism festers.

[YouthofToday]

Prospects are a false stat.

[Chuck]

 Angels were going for a playoff push. When the trade was made, the Angels were only 4 games out and everyone knew pitching needed improvement. That is exactly what he did.

- Segura was expendable since there wasn't going to be a spot for him to play in the near future. He was also ranked in the 50's in most prospect reports.

- It's going to take a lot more than 32 games before I consider Segura as becoming the best MIF in the game.

 

It's tiring that people constantly knock Dipoto for the exact moves most people agreed with at the time. But now that people have the luxury of hindsight, the over criticism festers.

 

Exactly. 

[Ohtaniland]

Greinke was brought in as a rental. If he wasn't, it clearly showed that Dipoto who is a MLB GM had no clue about what the market rate for a frontline ace would be.