Dipoto blew it with Jean Segura

[ukyah]

why does he have to have had no clue? why can't it be that he did have a clue, but the angels are just running bad now. they can't  do anything right it seems. haven't you ever been in a rut before? sometimes, it takes time to get out of it. doesn't mean you should be happy about it, but see it for what it is, rather than gross incompetence. i do feel that scioscia and coaches should go, but that's my opinion, for other reasons than that "he sucks".

 

they brought greinke in for a playoff push, they made him a huge contract offer, but the dodgers went haywire and made him the highest paid rh pitcher in the game. should he have signed him to that contract? that would have been as big a mistake as any other huge FA signing.

 

things just aren't going the angels way recently, it's called paying the piper and it's because of the previous regime and the lasting effects of it. should they have kept all of their prospects and gone for a rebuild two years ago? totally valid question. 

 

everything else is just sour milk.

[YouthofToday]

The organization knew about the new comp rules in the CBA. If they didn't that would historic malfeasance.

The organization made a massive bet that Greinke would led them to the World Series. It failed. I think Arte wants to win so badly that he delusional about the talent on the field and how to build a 40 man roster for long-term success. Having the worst farm system in baseball is a damning indictment.

[Make Angels Great Again]

I was against the Greinke trade cause Greinke isn't all that good, and certainly not worth what was sent for him.

[Jay]

Most of us on here liked the Greinke trade IF AND ONLY IF he could be re-signed but he wasn't therefore it's a failure.

[YouthofToday]

Whether he was resigned was never a factor, unless we could get him at a below market rate -- which was never really a possibility.

[Angel Oracle]

Again though, aside from 2009, Greinke has been a solid pitcher and not one who is a true ace.

That is a rental that should not be done by trading a top prospect.

Ask the Tigers how their rental trade in 1987 worked (Smoltz for Alexander), and the Red Sox how their rental trade in 1990 worked (Bagwell for Andersen).

[The Dude]

Whether he was resigned was never a factor, unless we could get him at a below market rate -- which was never really a possibility.

Exactly. The chances of him resigning with the Angels were pretty slim and I think they knew this. So even if they did manage to squeak into the playoffs what was the plan moving forward? Was trading what little we had left in terms of prospects really worth ONE shot at the playoffs?

[Second Base]

Don't get me wrong, I'm siding with AJ on this one, trading for Greinke was a huge mistake.  But it's also the only realy blemish (outside of Blanton signing) that we've seen from Dipoto. 

 

But why was it a mistake?  SImple, when you have a package of prospects as valuable as Segura, Pena and Hellweg, you don't burn it on a 2-month rental.  You use that prospect package in the offseason to land you a major leaguer that you'd have for at least a year, possibly more.  The Angels didn't need to sign Josh Hamilton, they could've used those 3 prospects as something that'd get them into the Justin Upton trade conversation.  We knew Arizona was in the market for a SS and they ended up trading Bauer for Gregorious.  

 

All things considered, Segura, Hellweg, Pena and someone like Grichuk probably would've netted the Angels Upton. 

[Ohtaniland]

I think the real issue with Dipoto is that he's not really in charge. It appears that Arte handles all the Big Boy pants acquistions by himself (Pujols, Wilson and Hamilton)and Dipoto steps aside to handle all the small potato deals. I thought that Dipoto would have the authority to make all of the baseball personnel decisions but he doesn't. That's a recipe for failure.

[Blarg]

The Dodgers grossly over paid for Greinke, that was not the price structure for his career record, He had one insanely amazing year in 2009, his other years pitched more like a #2 starter or worse.

 

Greinke was brought in as a rental. If he wasn't, it clearly showed that Dipoto who is a MLB GM had no clue about what the market rate for a frontline ace would be.

[Ohtaniland]

The day we acquired Greinke Jon Heyman said it would cost the Angels $150+ million to keep him so I don't understand what the mystery was.

[stormngt]

Let's be honest here. I don't expect him to hit .333/.381/.537 all year and to continue his 9 WAR pace - maybe more like .290+/.800 and 5 WAR. But he is what I thought he could be in a best-case scenario: better than Aybar and Kendrick, and much cheaper.

 

Now I suppose that you could say that given that Pena and Hellweg are likely to be solid bullpen arms or maybe decent starters, the Angels had to part with at least one significant prospect to get Zack Greinke. But here we are: with weak starting pitching, no Greinke, and watching Segura turn into one of the best middle infielders in the game.

 

Why does this keep happening? It seems like an inordinate number of moves over the last few years - whether trades or free agent signings - just don't go the Angels' way. I want to know why. Is it the scouting? Lack of judgement on Jerry Dipoto's part, following the great tradition of Tony Reagins? Arte Moreno playing the puppeteer? The coaching? Indian burial grounds? What? Why is it that the the majority of players who come in from elsewhere struggle as Angels, while the majority of those who leave do well? That's a big problem. Maybe I'm looking at it selectively and it is an illusion, but I don't know...

Outside of Segura, what prospects have we given away turned into above average major leaguers?  The only one I can think of is the pitchers we gave up for Haren, but that was a solid move.  Had we won with Haren, no one would have judged that to be a bad move.  It was only a bad move in hindsight.  As for Segura your right, he is probably better than what our front office thought of him.  However, you say "why does this keep happening?".  I ask who else did the front office screw up on by trading?

 

It certainly wasn't Kotchman, or Rodriguez.

[Blarg]

Let's say the Grienke trade (at the time with the Angels right on the Rangers heels) propelled them into the playoffs and the World Series. Is the trade then a huge mistake? I doubt any of you would say a word negatively about it if it accomplished what it set out to do even with Greinke going to the Dodgers. You would all admit it was worth prospects to get to that last series.

 

The Angels were in 2nd place 4 games back of the Rangers when the trade went down. They had a legitimate chance at either winning the division or at the very least a wildcard spot.

 

Sometimes a GM has to wiegh what they have at this moment in terms of chances to get to the playoffs even at the cost of their farm. Every year each owner/GM talks about their commitment to get to the World Series and when that window of opportunity is there they have to take some chances.  

 

I didn't like the Greinke trade because of the pitcher, the same as the Haren trade and in hindsight the Angels in the long run may have fared better holding their prospects. But like everyone else I liked the fact the front office wasn't going to waste a chance at a very winnable division title. Hindsight had nothing to say the day the trades went down, only years later.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm siding with AJ on this one, trading for Greinke was a huge mistake.  But it's also the only realy blemish (outside of Blanton signing) that we've seen from Dipoto. 

 

But why was it a mistake?  SImple, when you have a package of prospects as valuable as Segura, Pena and Hellweg, you don't burn it on a 2-month rental.  You use that prospect package in the offseason to land you a major leaguer that you'd have for at least a year, possibly more.  The Angels didn't need to sign Josh Hamilton, they could've used those 3 prospects as something that'd get them into the Justin Upton trade conversation.  We knew Arizona was in the market for a SS and they ended up trading Bauer for Gregorious.  

 

All things considered, Segura, Hellweg, Pena and someone like Grichuk probably would've netted the Angels Upton. 

[stormngt]

I don't think a trade can be judged entirely at the time it is made. You do have to look a few years down the line. In the case of the greinke trade, it could go down as a colossal mistake, and dipoto probably deserves criticism for it.

We lost a player that was blocked by two very good players (Aybar and Kendrick). It will not go down as a colossal mistake.  Haren might be considered a colossal mistake because we traded him at a time we were not in a position for a playoff run and we gave away three very good players and we didn't make the playoffs once during Haren's tenure.  

[stormngt]

Most of us on here liked the Greinke trade IF AND ONLY IF he could be re-signed but he wasn't therefore it's a failure.

or its a good trade if we make the ALCS. 

 

Neither happened.  However, it was a gamble that needed to be made.

[Blarg]

He tells you flat out his free agency was about the money, first and foremost. "It's obviously the No. 1 thing," Greinke said. "I could play for the worst team if they paid the most. ... If the last-place team offers $200 million and the first-place team offers $10, I'm going to go for the $200-million no matter what team it was."

 

He got his wish.

 

The day we acquired Greinke Jon Heyman said it would cost the Angels $150+ million to keep him so I don't understand what the mystery was.

[stormngt]

Let's say the Grienke trade (at the time with the Angels right on the Rangers heels) propelled them into the playoffs and the World Series. Is the trade then a huge mistake? I doubt any of you would say a word negatively about it if it accomplished what it set out to do even with Greinke going to the Dodgers. You would all admit it was worth prospects to get to that last series.

 

The Angels were in 2nd place 4 games back of the Rangers when the trade went down. They had a legitimate chance at either winning the division or at the very least a wildcard spot.

 

Sometimes a GM has to wiegh what they have at this moment in terms of chances to get to the playoffs even at the cost of their farm. Every year each owner/GM talks about their commitment to get to the World Series and when that window of opportunity is there they have to take some chances.  

 

I didn't like the Greinke trade because of the pitcher, the same as the Haren trade and in hindsight the Angels in the long run may have fared better holding their prospects. But like everyone else I liked the fact the front office wasn't going to waste a chance at a very winnable division title. Hindsight had nothing to say the day the trades went down, only years later.

Weren't they leading in the WC race at the time?

[Vegas Halo Fan]

Should we blame Arte? I don't know. The end result is the same: something is rotten in Denmark, something is broken in this organization and fixing it won't be easy or quick.

 

People conveniently forget that this was the case when Dipoto arrived, and a year and a half is hardly enough time to fix it. This was one of the worst run organizations in baseball from a front office standpoint before the Dipoto hire. I also don't understand why people keep nailing Dipoto for the Pujols contract, when Arte Moreno's direct involvement was so widely publicized. Moreno wanted him here, and he pulled out all the stops to get him - including handing him a paycheck for the next 20 years, half of that for playing. Rumor has it that the Hamilton contract was a similar circumstance (minus the personal services deal). Wilson I don't know about.

[Lifetime]

I think the real issue with Dipoto is that he's not really in charge. It appears that Arte handles all the Big Boy pants acquistions by himself (Pujols, Wilson and Hamilton)and Dipoto steps aside to handle all the small potato deals. I thought that Dipoto would have the authority to make all of the baseball personnel decisions but he doesn't. That's a recipe for failure.

name one team where the owner does not play a significant role in big FA acquisitions. Arte isn't behaving any differently than any other owner in this regard. And no, he doesn't handle all of those acquisitions by himself. The owner always has the final say in whether or not to pursue those kind of acquisitions. Arte was involved in the wooing process to entice those players to sign with the Angels, players that were already being pursued by the team (and Dipoto). The owner taking an intimate relationship approach to acquiring these kind of big name players is an effective tool. But to say that Arte ramrods these deals past Dipoto or that Arte handles these deals on his own and doesn't allow for input and decisions from his GM and Manager is ridiculous. 

[Vegas Halo Fan]

But to say that Arte ramrods these deals past Dipoto or that Arte handles these deals on his own and doesn't allow for input and decisions from his GM and Manager is ridiculous. 

 

What is truly ridiculous is believing that a GM would hand a 32-year-old player a ten-year contract on his own.

[AZMike]

Don't get me wrong, I'm siding with AJ on this one, trading for Greinke was a huge mistake.  But it's also the only realy blemish (outside of Blanton signing) that we've seen from Dipoto. 

 

Marmol for Haren, had it gone down, would've been nearly as bad as Blanton

[Lifetime]

What is truly ridiculous is believing that a GM would hand a 32-year-old player a ten-year contract on his own.

um, who are you referring to? I definitely didn't say anything of the sort.

[Mark68]

Here is another angle:

 

I don't think ANYBODY foresaw what the free agent market was going to be like (in terms of dollar amounts) this past offseason. Jerry made the trade and gave up Segura because you have to give talent to get talent, and while he was the Angels' top-rated prospect at the time, he was just that, a prospect, who had yet to perform at the major league level. He was also a prospect who was blocked by two above-average (and relatively cheap, even with their new contracts) middle infielders, and looked to be for some time. On the other hand, the Angels were four games out of first with a good look at winning the division, or at least, a wild card slot. Pitching was the primary issue at the time of the trade, and he was the best pitcher available. So we didn't make the playoffs. That wasn't Greinke's fault. He turned out to be the team's best pitcher down the stretch. If we had made the playoffs, there might have been more incentive for Greinke to stay, plus, there wouldn't be all this second-guessing from everyone who all of a sudden has 20/20 hindsight on here.

 

I said it at the time of the trade, and I'll reiterate it here: Flags Fly Forever. Greinke was the best opportunity to get that flag. It didn't work. Dipoto rolled the dice and crapped out. At least he showed that he wasn't going to stand pat and let things just play out.

 

Think about this for a moment: You're the GM, your team is in the thick of the hunt, and your primary need is pitching. There is a pitcher available who is really good, and gives you a great opportunity to win the title that year. All the other team wants in return is a bunch of prospects, nobody who has spent much time in the majors. Do you pull the trigger? Or do you just let things "play out" and hope that the team wins with what it has?

[Lifetime]

great post Mark

[m0nkey]

I loved the trade.  I would've made greinke the top priority in the offseason, and maybe he was.  I can understand not giving a pitcher 6/147 though. 

 

Segura is off to a hot start, but it's not like hellweg and pena are tearing it up in the minors