The War on Drugs

[saangels]

http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/2012/dec/17/us_has_330000_drug_offenders_pri
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate

 

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04022010/profile3.html

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/05/opinion/sunday/too-many-prisoners.html?_r=0

[Lifetime]

http://open.salon.com/blog/stephannie/2010/05/16/how_many_people_are_incarcerated_for_drug_related_offenses

 

 

around 20% of inmates are in jail for drug related crimes. 

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2223626/Prisons-America-breaking-point-million-citizens-bars.html

 

overcrowding approaching 45%

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1023129/Thousands-violent-prisoners-released-free-jail-space.html

 

there you go.

you realize that last article is about the UK right?

 

 

I don't see anything in any of those links to indicate that the early releases of violent criminals are to make way for druggies.

[Blarg]

One line of cocaine, yeah I can handle that, you say. But like potato chips no one stops at one.

 

And the same can be said of more simpler drugs that are oxycontins used for pain killers. I could easily go full addict on some of the stuff I have received for temporary relief of my arthritis. Not that I would want to but the qualities of these drugs change the chemical composition of your brain function so you cannot stop taking them. Hence the small doses allowed and only for short periods of time prescribed by physicians.

 

Where is the line drawn?

 

I think a jail sentence is a lot more dangerous than a line of cocaine.  But I respect your opinion.   

[Lifetime]

So again, part of this examination needs to be what the drug offenses are that led to these incarcerations.

 

If we are to legalize some drugs and not others, what is the net affect on the drug related incarceration rate? Even if we decide to "legalize" some drugs, there will still be some legal controls over their use and distribution. 

 

If we are going to legalize some drugs, which ones are we legalizing and why?

[saangels]

One line of cocaine, yeah I can handle that, you say. But like potato chips no one stops at one.

 

And the same can be said of more simpler drugs that are oxycontins used for pain killers. I could easily go full addict on some of the stuff I have received for temporary relief of my arthritis. Not that I would want to but the qualities of these drugs change the chemical composition of your brain function so you cannot stop taking them. Hence the small doses allowed and only for short periods of time prescribed by physicians.

 

Where is the line drawn?

You're absolutely right, Eric.  One line of cocaine is a terrible idea; it rarely ever ends at one line.  I'm not trying to make a case for people to try cocaine.  It is dangerous and highly addictive.  But so are cigarettes.   

 

I want an objective set of laws.  If it is a matter of addiction: nothing is worse than a cigarette.  If it is a matter of dangerous side effects: cigarettes kill over 400,000 Americans a year.  Alcohol kills over 100,000 Americans every year, leads to a sh*t load of car accidents, not to mentioned lord knows how many ruined relationships, abused children, etc.  Yet for some reason the latter product is openly marketed on television sets and billboards across the country, while drugs that produce similar side effects result in a one way ticket to the slammer.  It just seems like a contradiction to me.  Just because something is socially acceptable doesn't mean it's morally sound, and vice versa.  What about cigarettes and alcohol, other than their respective levels of social acceptability, makes them different from other drugs?        

[Blarg]

The effects of cigarette and alcohol abuse is a longer term health concern. For many alcohol can be consumed without ever reaching an addiction stage even after college party years. The effects of prescription drugs go from recreational to severe addiction in a matter of months, few people have a metabolism that can handle the effects.

 

Still, using one as an excuse to accept another is not the argument you may want to make.

 

 

Oh and my brother is celebrating quiting cigarettes for the 2nd time and I couldn't be happier for him.

[Lhalo]

So again, part of this examination needs to be what the drug offenses are that led to these incarcerations.

 

If we are to legalize some drugs and not others, what is the net affect on the drug related incarceration rate? Even if we decide to "legalize" some drugs, there will still be some legal controls over their use and distribution. 

 

If we are going to legalize some drugs, which ones are we legalizing and why?

Lets start with marijuana and go from there.

[saangels]

The effects of cigarette and alcohol abuse is a longer term health concern. For many alcohol can be consumed without ever reaching an addiction stage even after college party years. The effects of prescription drugs go from recreational to severe addiction in a matter of months, few people have a metabolism that can handle the effects.

 

Still, using one as an excuse to accept another is not the argument you may want to make.

 

 

Oh and my brother is celebrating quiting cigarettes for the 2nd time and I couldn't be happier for him.

But what's the difference whether one is a longer term health concern than the other?  Are you saying that it's better to die a slow, painful death than to die a quick one?    

 

I agree with you that "the effects of prescription drugs go from recreational to severe addiction in a matter of months."  The question is: why is it legally tenable for prescription users to get addicted to the same active ingredient (opium) that costs heroin users their freedom on the streets?  The answer is: because the prescription user can afford a medical alibi. 

[Lifetime]

Lets start with marijuana and go from there.

OK, let's do that. Now, what are the controls? No limitations to cultivation and distribution and usage? If we adjust the legalization of marijuana, how much does this effect the druggie prison population or other drug related crimes? In other words what's the net effect of this?

[Ray McKigney]

I'd like to hear what Cheech & Chong have to say on the issue.

[nate]

OK, let's do that. Now, what are the controls? No limitations to cultivation and distribution and usage? If we adjust the legalization of marijuana, how much does this effect the druggie prison population or other drug related crimes? In other words what's the net effect of this?

 

Let the FDA or ATF regulate it.  Require farms to be certified, require sales to be regulated.  Use tax money from the sale to pay for all the regulation.  Releasing the people from prison would immediately help the prison system which is overpopulated.

[Lifetime]

Let the FDA or ATF regulate it.  Require farms to be certified, require sales to be regulated.  Use tax money from the sale to pay for all the regulation.  Releasing the people from prison would immediately help the prison system which is overpopulated.

this isn't very helpful nate. I'm fine with letting the FDA and ATF regulate it and requiring certified farms and regulating sales and I'm fine with taxing those sales. My question goes to more specifics regarding the regulations and the effects on the prison population. I don't doubt releasing drug possession prisoners would reduce prison populations but I doubt it's a significant number. Do you also release all prisoners with other charges such as trafficking, multiple violations, other criminal history in addition to their possession (which multiplied their sentence), etc. Again, what's the net result.

[Lhalo]

I would treat marijuana like this:

- Legal to use and sell for persons over the age of 18

- Illegal to use or sell at or near schools

- Legal to cultivate for personal use

- Legal to commercially sell and cultivate with a license

[Lifetime]

how would you regulate personal use cultivation?

 

Is it legal for anyone to sell marijuana (your first line)?

 

and now that we've set those parameters, how does that effect crime and the prison population?

[HaloMagic]

It's crazy how comfortable people feel telling others what they can do with their own lives. Count me in for legalization of all drugs. It's not my business what you do with your life.

[mrwicked]

[Adam]

It's crazy how comfortable people feel telling others what they can do with their own lives. Count me in for legalization of all drugs. It's not my business what you do with your life.

 

I agree. At the same time, I wish we could make drugs illegal for everyone with a passion for pot, exceeding their passion for anything else. 

[mrwicked]

make them legal.

and tax the hell out of them.

i dont want to be on the hook to fund your medical expenses when that stuff rots your body.

just like cigarettes. 

[Lifetime]

aren't cigs taxed for this purpose as well?

[saangels]

I agree. At the same time, I wish we could make drugs illegal for everyone with a passion for pot, exceeding their passion for anything else. 

Hahah.  In a perfect world, I'm right there with you, Adam. 

[Futch Winkleman]

 

I haven't heard "Mechanical Animals" in years.

 

Loved that entire album.  It had a very Bowie-like feel to it.

[nate]

this isn't very helpful nate. I'm fine with letting the FDA and ATF regulate it and requiring certified farms and regulating sales and I'm fine with taxing those sales. My question goes to more specifics regarding the regulations and the effects on the prison population. I don't doubt releasing drug possession prisoners would reduce prison populations but I doubt it's a significant number. Do you also release all prisoners with other charges such as trafficking, multiple violations, other criminal history in addition to their possession (which multiplied their sentence), etc. Again, what's the net result.

 

My take was more with marijuana.  I would say everyone with a non violent offense and non gang affiliated.

 

I do however believe that prison for all druggies is ridiculous.  If anything put em in the drunk tank to get em sober.

 

Put an 18 or 21 year old restriction on sales.

 

I am sure there is a lot of research that has been done on it.  We will find out one day when legalization is approached.

[Lifetime]

Shouldn't we know that stuff before we advocate for legalization? Shouldn't we look at the various ramifications of these changes, both good and bad? A lot of people are advocating for legalizing marijuana and usually their arguments are similar, jail population reduction and reduced crime, but I have yet to see any real research. I'm guessing, without that data, that the simple drug user incarceration population is a pretty small percentage. I'm really curious what the net result would be if we adjusted the legalization of marijuana (iow with new regulation).

Also, I don't believe prison for all druggies is mandatory.

[nate]

Shouldn't we know that stuff before we advocate for legalization? Shouldn't we look at the various ramifications of these changes, both good and bad? A lot of people are advocating for legalizing marijuana and usually their arguments are similar, jail population reduction and reduced crime, but I have yet to see any real research. I'm guessing, without that data, that the simple drug user incarceration population is a pretty small percentage. I'm really curious what the net result would be if we adjusted the legalization of marijuana (iow with new regulation).

Also, I don't believe prison for all druggies is mandatory.

 

 

All the data is out there.  If you look at every legalization bill that is proposed, the opposition is cigarette and booze companies.  Like anything with our government it is all about money.  Those two companies have big time money to oppose.

[Lifetime]

I'm not interested in who is opposing the bills. Iuunderstand their opposition from a business perspective. More choices for altered recreation dilutes their market. It makes sense for them to fight it. But that doesn't tell me if it's a good idea or not. I'm more interested in the data. I'm also interested in why people are for legalization or limited legalization without having this information. If the data is out there, where is it? Have you seen it?