Our farm??? or lack thereof

[floplag]

On Fangraphs today they posted the updated lists for top 10 prospects in the AL west, and i have to say i was flabbergasted at this list.   If you read the summaries on the other clubs, then read ours, its incredibly depressing.  The difference in adjectives was noticeable ours being heavy on "struggled", "mixed", "injuries" "mid rotation" and "utility"

Now i hate to be a jerk but with all the talk about the farm and protecting the farm and not trading asets etc.... this, is what some of you are so terrified to lose?  I mean i get it in principle sure but this evaluation is far from anything i would be broken up to lose.   What on this list is untouchable or even relevant at the ML level in the next 3 years? 

If this is where we are right now we are further off than even i thought in this regard, and thats bad cause i thought we were barren. 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/updated-top-10-prospect-lists-al-west/

Los Angeles Angels (Preseason List)

1. Jordon Adell, OF
2. Jahmai Jones, CF
3. Brandon Marsh, CF
4. Chris Rodriguez, RHP
5. Jaime Barria, RHP
6. Matt Thaiss, 1B
7. Griffin Canning, RHP
8. Jacob Pearson, OF
9. David Fletcher, SS
10. Jose Soriano, RHP

Jones has struggled with breaking balls this season but made some adjustments in Low-A, started hitting, and has continued to do so since promotion to High-A. Marsh has dealt with injuries but has the speed to play center and plus raw power projection. Chris Rodriguez was flashing three plus pitches in extended spring training. His results have been mixed since he was assigned to an affiliate. Barria could be a mid-rotation starter based largely on his command. Thaiss doesn’t have prototypical power for first base but might hit enough to be a low-end regular there. Fletcher projects as a utility man. Soriano is physically projectable and touching 96 here in Arizona after sitting 87-92 this spring.

 

[totdprods]

I am thrilled and enthused with the state of our farm, Fangraphs be damned. It will be another year still before anyone starts taking it seriously.

[floplag]

2 minutes ago, totdprods said:

I am thrilled and enthused with the state of our farm, Fangraphs be damned. It will be another year still before anyone starts taking it seriously.

No offense but these guys are the experts, we are just fans.  Im glad you are happy with it, i could not be more unhappy.  

[Dtwncbad]

I don't think anybody is under the illusion that the Angels have a treasure trove of All Stars now on the way.

The point of the optimism is things are improving.  You can't waive a magic wand and suddenly have 9 guys in the top 100.  I am happy things are going in the right direction.

[floplag]

5 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

I don't think anybody is under the illusion that the Angels have a treasure trove of All Stars now on the way.

The point of the optimism is things are improving.  You can't waive a magic wand and suddenly have 9 guys in the top 100.  I am happy things are going in the right direction.

As am i, but thats not the point.  Im wondering what on this list is so valuable that we should be concerned with possibly trading them.   Id be more worried about what on that list anyone might actually want.

[Dtwncbad]

5 minutes ago, floplag said:

As am i, but thats not the point.  Im wondering what on this list is so valuable that we should be concerned with possibly trading them.   Id be more worried about what on that list anyone might actually want.

There are probably 3 future major league regulars on that list.  They Angels will need those players.

The difference is if the Angels had three times as many future regulars, they would have more room to not worry about trading some away.

[floplag]

8 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

There are probably 3 future major league regulars on that list.  They Angels will need those players.

The difference is if the Angels had three times as many future regulars, they would have more room to not worry about trading some away.

I agree in theory, but i do not share the view that 3 of those are future MLers.   
Bottom line, what of this list is so untouchable?

[Chuck]

35 minutes ago, totdprods said:

I am thrilled and enthused with the state of our farm, Fangraphs be damned. It will be another year still before anyone starts taking it seriously.

^

[Chuck]

You're way off on this take, @floplag

[Junkballer]

This was really much more of a random thoughts piece than anything detailed enough to form any significant opinions from, much less be flabbergasted by.  And it wasn't nearly as critical as you made it out to be in comparison to ALWest teams other than the 'Stros.  It's no news flash that the Angels are near the bottom overall, but Eppler just had his 2nd draft and the top two players from the last one weren't reviewed in the article and are going to really help the club barring injury.  I love the way Eppler is building this club, but it requires patience.

[floplag]

Fair enough, i guess i just dont see how protecting this list is more important than winning at the ML level.   Ill drop it 

[ten ocho recon scout]

9 minutes ago, floplag said:

Fair enough, i guess i just dont see how protecting this list is more important than winning at the ML level.   Ill drop it 

Meh, it all depends on the list, and the team.

The angels in the 2000s could have traded from our farm, and probably should have. It was deep, and we kept drafting well. We havent had either for awhile. So its likely better (for the present) to build that up before we break it down.

Even if the top names we have now turn into say calhoun at best, that would still help us in spades.

I think what people are only now noticing is the days of FA are somewhat over. Obviously good guys still hit FA, but the quality and quantity that hits FA is a lot less than it used to be. So even if we have the money and dont care the cost, the odds what we need in any given year is less than what it was even ten years ago.

 

[Stradling]

I think people see Adell as a future All Star type talent and Jam Jones as a good everyday outfielder.  

Trading either of those for anything other than someone you have for 3+ years would be a huge mistake.  

[Inside Pitch]

13 minutes ago, Junkballer said:

This was really much more of a random thoughts piece than anything detailed enough to form any significant opinions from, much less be flabbergasted by.  And it wasn't nearly as critical as you made it out to be in comparison to ALWest teams other than the 'Stros.  It's no news flash that the Angels are near the bottom overall, but Eppler just had his 2nd draft and the top two players from the last one weren't reviewed in the article and are going to really help the club barring injury.  I love the way Eppler is building this club, but it requires patience.

Context is everything -- they used "struggled" when describing Kyle Tucker too and in neither his nor Jones' case was it's usage a matter for concern -- in both cases the players in question were being touted for what they are doing despite the "struggles."  Honestly, the OP's post is prime case of someone trying to validate their opinions more than anything else.  To that end, here's the opposing usage of keywords..  "started hitting, continued to do so",  "speed, plus raw power" "three plus pitches", "physically projectable", "touching 96".   

18 minutes ago, floplag said:

Fair enough, i guess i just dont see how protecting this list is more important than winning at the ML level.   Ill drop it 

I understand you think they would be wasting this season by not doing something now -- but have you at all considered that "maybe" they believe they'll eventually be able to cash them in on a player they want, a player they believe can help them beyond being a rental?   If recent history is any indication Eppler isn't afraid to move a prospect, even THE top prospect should a situation arise where he can obtain someone that can be a difference maker on some level..  You may very well see a trade made in the off-season.  

Anyway, it seems pretty obvious the current FO isn't willing to mortgage the future as easily as the previous one did while at the same time being much more willing to move a prospect than the Stoneman regime ever was..    I'd call that a happy medium as far as Angel front offices go.

 

[Blarg]

Very few can tell what a house will look like in the early stages of framing but you don't dissamble it because you want some firewood.

[Inside Pitch]

21 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I think what people are only now noticing is the days of FA are somewhat over. Obviously good guys still hit FA, but the quality and quantity that hits FA is a lot less than it used to be. So even if we have the money and dont care the cost, the odds what we need in any given year is less than what it was even ten years ago.

There was a recent article that stated guys like Boras are bemoaning advanced proprietary analytics because it doesn't allow for the agents to counter with their own analysis of the data...   So, yeah, I think you're right and that a lot of teams are looking at FA a little differently than they did in the past..   More and more we are seeing teams lock guys up early and keeping guys from hitting FA.  There will always be guys that want to push for FA and will do so ala Grienke but, things do seem to be changing a bit.

[totdprods]

2 minutes ago, floplag said:

No offense but these guys are the experts, we are just fans.  Im glad you are happy with it, i could not be more unhappy.  

No offense taken. They may be experts but they are wrong just as often as fans are right. 

Eppler has barely subtracted anything from the farm, he's added to it heavily, and I see enough talent on the farm to give the Halos a shot at relying on prospects soon. 

I also see plenty of trade currency developing there too. 

Overall, what excites me most is Eppler seems to have a plan, a vision, and things seem to be implemented top-down. I don't think the goal needs to be 'having the best farm' or the 'most Top 100 prospects'. It's about having a farm system that works for the big league club, either by providing depth, future talent to fill needs efficiently, or providing depth from which to trade from. Eppler seems to have that system working.

[ten ocho recon scout]

5 minutes ago, Blarg said:

Very few can tell what a house will look like in the early stages of framing but you don't dissamble it because you want some firewood.

Firewood would have been a good nickname for brandon wood. AO asleep at the wheel.

[Inside Pitch]

BTW Flop -- nice job of getting discussion started..    Goes to show a person can in fact stick to their opinion while actually encouraging debate.    So, props.

[ten ocho recon scout]

2 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

There was a recent article that stated guys like Boras are bemoaning advanced proprietary analytics because it doesn't allow for the agents to counter with their own analysis of the data...   So, yeah, I think you're right and that a lot of teams are looking at FA a little differently than they did in the past..   More and more we are seeing teams lock guys up early and keeping guys from hitting FA.  There will always be guys that want to push for FA and will do so ala Grienke but, things do seem to be changing a bit.

Dont know how to bold quotes like everyone on here, but where you say teams are locking guys up esrly, agree completely.

The steroid years leat guys play well into their 30s, and they all signed shorter term deals (to make more later). Now, the young badass guys seem like theyre getting locked up before they ever hit FA. I dont think thats going to change much, personally.

If even the yankees, who were the FA team, have moved towards building internally, thats a good indicator. Not that they cant afford who they want, its the odds of said players being available being less than it used to be.

[Angel Oracle]

Neither Reagins nor Dipeutered understood the importance of a plan.   Well, I guess high floor drafts by Dipeutered was a plan, just not a very good one.

Eppler does have a real plan.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

1 hour ago, Dtwncbad said:

I don't think anybody is under the illusion that the Angels have a treasure trove of All Stars now on the way.

The point of the optimism is things are improving.  You can't waive a magic wand and suddenly have 9 guys in the top 100.  I am happy things are going in the right direction.

Have we ever?.... Maybe, 2 or 3......

[Inside Pitch]

Just now, Angel Oracle said:

Neither Reagins nor Dipeutered understood the importance of a plan.   Well, I guess high floor drafts by Dipeutered was a plan, just not a very good one.

Eppler does have a real plan.

They both did seem rather reactionary..   JD did often refer to having a plan, he just didn't seem to really adhere to it or any of the things he claimed he valued.   The need for balance and control of the counts stick out the most IMO.

Eppler talks a lot less (he talks right?), and it's probably frustrating to many to never see us being mentioned as being interested in this guy or that guy..  At the same time, we don't have crap getting out of the clubhouse every other day anymore either...

[Inside Pitch]

10 minutes ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

Have we ever?.... Maybe, 2 or 3......

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1L1H_USzTBUu5Hloc45vJV3-LTX5vfr-les_DSszC_gs/edit?hl=en&hl=en#gid=17

Check out the run between 2003-2006.   Never less than 6 guys, I think they topped out at 7 -- that was one hell of a four year run..    The really interesting part is the guys they graduated who never made any top 100s -- like Naps..

[floplag]

For the record I get the plan, I truly do, ive been around the game for over 45 years now and im not ignorant of how things work.  I'm not disputing the plan as being valid at all, of course it is.   And for the most part considering what was inherited i'm not even really knocking Eppler for what hes done to date, we have in fact moved up the ladder a little.   So in regards to the goal of building up the farm, he has been successful.

What i do not understand is prioritizing that, over the major league product.  To me, that's the bottom line.  I can't accept that as a fan even if it makes perfect sense in the long term.  Especially when you have a Trout on the club.  Not when it obviously isn't necessary money wise.  I accepting it in the old days, i didn't expect to win every year, but now?  Why should we accept a losing mediocre product now?  It simply makes no sense at all.   Are we the new and improved big market LA Angels or the Cal Angels of old?

Really though what actually is the plan?  We assume we know but its never been clarified by the club.   Its obvious they had zero intent on spending till bad money dropped off, again,  but they never said so.  By all appearance right now it looks like the plan is to hover around 500, milk Trout for everything hes worth and maybe be ready to make a  run when he becomes what Pujols is today?   I'm exaggerating of course, at least i hope i am,  but why make a trade for Simmons (amazing deal by the way) to pair with Trout then not build on that.   Its conflicting signals that make no sense.  

I know Eppler is still relatively new and needs time, but if this is the plan to go the long term route then I wish they would just come clean and say so, stop stringing us along.  Otherwise fix it, or blow it up, but do something.  This indecisiveness of who we are or what the plan is has gotten to me.    

Sorry if it offends or bothers some but ive been watching this club since the mid 70s, and i thought we had finally turned the corner to become something more than we were.  I guess I was wrong and we are still just the Dodgers little brother worried about our allowance.