Vlad and the HOF- Angel or Expo?

[Taylor]

I refuse to vote until R. Munkee weighs in with his opinion.

[Biergott]

44 minutes ago, Taylor said:

I refuse to vote until R. Munkee weighs in with his opinion.

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

Of course I'd like to see him go in an as Angel but you can make the case for both caps and I think there's a stronger case for Montreal.  His per game stats were all better with Montreal aside from I think runs and RBI's (barely) which is impacted by the line up around him.  Hopefully it's a question we get answered next year as it looks like he should get in then.  

[Angel Oracle]

One good way to test the waters is to ask people throughout the country on the street, which do you remember more?

Vlad as an Expo?    Or Vlad as a Halo?

[totdprods]

19 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

One good way to test the waters is to ask people throughout the country on the street, which do you remember more?

Vlad as an Expo?    Or Vlad as a Halo?

Everyone would go in as a Yankee.

[stormngt]

This issue as been debated ad nausea.  However, since the HOF ballots was just yesterday, it makes sense to reignite the debate.  Most argue that Vladdy should go in as an Expo.  He played more games as an Expo and he had better stats and made his name as an Expo.  

However, I will argue, unless Vladdy prefers otherwise, he would go in as an Angel.  There three reasons why I think that to be the case.  

First, the Expo's no longer exist and they have three players already in. Second, there are currently no Angels in the HOF. Therefore being the first Angel that should qualify should benefit the team that has no representatives.

Third, Vladdy's performance with the Angels justifies HOF credentials.  It wasn't like Pujols where he was obviously a declining threat while he was with the Angels. Vladdy was the most feared hitter in baseball during his six years with the Angels.  He won his only MVP.  He appeared in his only playoff experience with the Angels.  Even during his last year with the Angels he was the teams best hitter going into the playoffs.  Only his injury kept him from keeping his streak of 320 BA, 30 HR's and 100+ RBI's alive. He his numbers with the Angels are fairly close to his numbers with the Expos.  Since his performance is close with both franchises they should give to the franchise that does not have a representative yet.  

Now argument 1 and 2 are really frivolous without argument 3  However, I believe the first and second argument is compelling once attached with the third.

 

 

[Keener]

22 hours ago, red321 said:

Older article about Vlad...made me smile.

http://deadspin.com/vladimir-guerrero-had-hubris-and-he-had-balls-1689124654

I can remember watching him throw the ball over the right field wall while warming up. My uncle was in town for a game and we were in the stands...watch this I told him. Watch him warm up? yeah...Wh.........holy shit, did he just do that?

We were lucky we got to watch him play day in and day out.

 

Exact story, except showing my son.  He always seemed to play catch with Figgins.  We wanted to see Chone give it a try.

[Keener]

Oh yeah, topic.  Angels cap.

[ScruffytheJanitor]

On 1/18/2017 at 5:43 PM, red321 said:

Older article about Vlad...made me smile.

http://deadspin.com/vladimir-guerrero-had-hubris-and-he-had-balls-1689124654

I can remember watching him throw the ball over the right field wall while warming up. My uncle was in town for a game and we were in the stands...watch this I told him. Watch him warm up? yeah...Wh.........holy shit, did he just do that?

We were lucky we got to watch him play day in and day out.

 

This quote from that article is 100 per cent true:

Quote

Trying to rationalize Guerrero and where he could be used was a futile, even counterproductive exercise. Your eyes would process what would happen, but your brain just couldn't accept it. It had to be lucky. Vlad defied everything you thought you knew about baseball. How could it be anything other than luck?

I remember flipping on a baseball game once when I only had about 5 minutes to kill before I left for work. I saw exactly two pitches. Vlad took the first pitch (it was outside) and I said, "Man, I bet he wishes he had that pitch again." The second pitch was a change up- clearly a ball-- that almost looked like a sinker. It was straight down the middle. He absolutely crushed it. I just laughed and turned off the TV. Nothing in that game was going to beat Vladdy smashing a homerun. 

He's the modern Rube Wadell (without the drinking problem... or at least, without succumbing to a drinking problem). He was just such a damn natural ball player. Not that he didn't work, but watch him hit a home run-- knowing he didn't study the pitcher, didn't care about the situation, just played with talent, intuition-- and its amazing to see how much damn conviction (almost righteous anger) there was in his swing. 

[WeatherWonk]

I really don't see how Vlad making the playoffs with the Angels (and not with the Expos) is somehow relevant. Wins lead to playoffs and wins are a team thing, not an individual thing. The Hall is about individual performance. As it rightly should be.

By that measure, Ernie Banks and George Sisler should never have gotten in the Hall.

And having an MVP season as an Angel? Come on, as fans of Mike Trout, we know how misleading an MVP award can be.

I like the idea of Trout going in as our first HOF player. But  even that is not a sure thing. Oh sure, he will make it, barring injuries. But he might play  more years with another organization, than he does with the Angels. If the Yankees or the Phils end up signing him to a long-term contract, and he continues to play at nearly the same level, he could easily go in representing one of those organizations.

[stormngt]

12 hours ago, WeatherWonk said:

I really don't see how Vlad making the playoffs with the Angels (and not with the Expos) is somehow relevant. Wins lead to playoffs and wins are a team thing, not an individual thing. The Hall is about individual performance. As it rightly should be.

By that measure, Ernie Banks and George Sisler should never have gotten in the Hall.

And having an MVP season as an Angel? Come on, as fans of Mike Trout, we know how misleading an MVP award can be.

I like the idea of Trout going in as our first HOF player. But  even that is not a sure thing. Oh sure, he will make it, barring injuries. But he might play  more years with another organization, than he does with the Angels. If the Yankees or the Phils end up signing him to a long-term contract, and he continues to play at nearly the same level, he could easily go in representing one of those organizations.

Making the playoffs should not determine if a player is HOF worthy

  At least not by itself.  My point was vladfy if HOF worthy for two teams.  His stats are mild better for team A.

However he won his only MVP for Team B and he was the best player on Team B as they won their conference six out of seven years.  

Add that argument to the fact franchise A no longer exist and already has three HOF inductees.  Franchise B still exists and has no HOF inductees.  

Those facts give a great argument that Vladfy should go into HOF as an Angel

[Jeff Fletcher]

About the question of which team he goes in representing... serious question...

What difference does it make?

To the team, the player, the fans? 

(I'll say Expos, by the way, and I don't think it's close. The Expos were his original team and he spent his most years there. Eight years is a long time.)

[Blarg]

It is obviously more important to the fans. As an Angels fan I would like to see at least one player inducted with their cap but you are correct about Vlad being an Expo representative more that Angels. In that regard to most seasons played, and most productivity, Nolan Ryan could have been an Astro inductee but an argument could be made for the Angels. Instead he is wearing a stupid Rangers cap.

[zenmaster]

Well his twitter pic is him in Expos gear so I think he's a bit partial to them. 

[Angel Oracle]

14 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

About the question of which team he goes in representing... serious question...

What difference does it make?

To the team, the player, the fans? 

(I'll say Expos, by the way, and I don't think it's close. The Expos were his original team and he spent his most years there. Eight years is a long time.)

He played 160 more games for the Expos than for the Halos.   That's one more season, essentially.

Combine that with his numbers not falling much here (aside from 2009), and with his rep growing here and post-season background here, and it seems to me to be a close call on which cap.  

Something needs to be done to right the wrong with Ryan not going in with a Halos cap.  
The Expos already have THREE caps in the HOF.

[Lou]

17 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

About the question of which team he goes in representing... serious question...

What difference does it make?

To the team, the player, the fans? 

(I'll say Expos, by the way, and I don't think it's close. The Expos were his original team and he spent his most years there. Eight years is a long time.)

 

Well, it's more like 7 seasons with Montreal. In 1996, he was a September call-up and appeared in only 9 games. Even in 1997, he only played in 90 games. 

In his 6 seasons here he was named MVP once, while finishing in the top 3 in voting three times. In Montreal, his highest finish was fourth. He made the AS team 4 times for each team.  He played in 5 postseasons here after never doing so with the Expos. I realize some of these things may not be a big deal to most people, but they seem to be with the voters. Hey, he even won more Silver Slugger awards here! 

I would say it makes a huge difference to the team and the fans. Montreal has neither of those. Now, before anyone chimes in with: " there are still a lot of Expos fans out there!", let me remind you that from 1998 to 2003 they never averaged 13,000 fans per game in any season. In 2001, their average attendance was 7,935 per game. That would have put them just above the 2016 El Paso Chihuahas. 

So, if a Vladdy hits a home run in Stade Olympique and there is no one there to see it . . . 

 

 

[Chuck]

34 minutes ago, Lou said:

 

Well, it's more like 7 seasons with Montreal. In 1996, he was a September call-up and appeared in only 9 games. Even in 1997, he only played in 90 games. 

In his 6 seasons here he was named MVP once, while finishing in the top 3 in voting three times. In Montreal, his highest finish was fourth. He made the AS team 4 times for each team.  He played in 5 postseasons here after never doing so with the Expos. I realize some of these things may not be a big deal to most people, but they seem to be with the voters. Hey, he even won more Silver Slugger awards here! 

I would say it makes a huge difference to the team and the fans. Montreal has neither of those. Now, before anyone chimes in with: " there are still a lot of Expos fans out there!", let me remind you that from 1998 to 2003 they never averaged 13,000 fans per game in any season. In 2001, their average attendance was 7,935 per game. That would have put them just above the 2016 El Paso Chihuahas. 

So, if a Vladdy hits a home run in Stade Olympique and there is no one there to see it . . . 

 

 

Great post, @Lou I agree 100%

[LightTheHalo]

Two things:

1) The Expos have three HOFers and the Angels have zero. WTF?!

2) Here are all the hitters in MLB history with Guerrero's slash line (.318/.379/.533) and 2,000 games played: Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Rogers Hornsby, Joe DiMaggio, Stan Musial, and Miguel Cabrera. Enough said.

[WeatherWonk]

3 hours ago, LightTheHalo said:

Two things:

1) The Expos have three HOFers and the Angels have zero. WTF?!

2) Here are all the hitters in MLB history with Guerrero's slash line (.318/.379/.533) and 2,000 games played: Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Rogers Hornsby, Joe DiMaggio, Stan Musial, and Miguel Cabrera. Enough said.

I dont think anyone is arguing that Vlad doesnt belong...........just what team he belongs with.

Gotta agree with others. What does it matter what team he goes in as? This is an individual accomplishment award.

[Ohtaniland]

Vlad Expos 5 tool player

Vlad Angels 2 tool player

[Stradling]

5 playoffs

0 playoffs

[Angel Oracle]

He actually was close to a 5 tool player the first 3 seasons here.

BA - check,  Power - check,     Arm - check,                             base running - almost check,  defense - almost check

Even after the base running lagged, he still defended well enough to be a partial tool, and had the other 3 tools still.