A Point/Counterpoint Debate: Vlad Guerrero’s Cap in the HOF

[Spirit]

 

By Glen McKee and Nate Trop, AngelsWin.com Senior Point/Counterpoint Correspondence -

 

There’s an internet rumor that Vlad Guerrero, otherwise known as “Valdy” by some spelling challenged posters on AngelsWin.com, said at Angels spring training camp that if he is elected to the Hall of Fame that he’ll “probably” wear an Angels cap since there is no longer a team in Montreal.  

 

While that is horrible logic, it opens up another PCP debate: should Vlad wear an Angels cap if he gets elected to the HOF?

 

Go Expos! â€“ Glen

 

First off, a confession of sorts.  The Angels have been my favorite team since I got interested in baseball back in 1979.  I remember listening to Bob Starr call the games and I was hooked.  As I learned more about baseball I adopted a second team.  It had to be an NL team because an AL team would be playing against my beloved Angels.  That team was the Expos.  If I’d been exposed to them first they may have become my team.  They played in an exotic foreign country, they had a goofy yet cool logo, and they were just different.  The Expos were the farm system for the rest of the league, developing stars and trading them to other teams for peanuts or losing them to free agency.  They were like the Cubs but north of the border.  It was through rooting for them that I first saw Valdy Guerrero.  There was no other player like him at the time.  I was so glad he was on the Expos.
 

After the 2003 season he became a free agent and I was sad because a) I knew the Expos wouldn’t re-sign him and 2) there was no way the Angels would get him.  He was destined to go to the Yankees and give me another reason to hate them, not that I needed one more.  And then, on January 12, 2004, I had my second-favorite Angels memory ever: Valdy signed with the Angels.
 

It was a shock.  Despite what I said about the Yankees, he wasn’t interested in them; the Orioles and the Mets were his leading suitors.  I was, in a word, amazed.  No other free-agent signing ever came close.  Vlad was coming to the Angels!

He was great on the team, earning an MVP award, and even signed a one-day contract to retire as an Angel.  With that in mind it makes sense for him to wear an Angels cap if he goes to the HOF.  But, I disagree.  First off, if you go to baseballreference.com and check his stats, this is the picture you see:

 

Baseball almanac:

 

MLB:

 

You get the picture, pun intended.  Vlad was with the Expos for eight years and played with them for six full seasons.  His first two seasons he played in 9 and 90 games, respectively.  He played six full seasons in Anaheim, or Los Angeles South.
 

I want an Angels cap in the HOF, I really do.  I just don’t think it should be Valdy wearing it.  In my mind, Valdy is more of an Expo than he is an Angel.  Think of it this way: if, after his current contract is up Mike Trout (heaven forfend) decides to go to New York or Philadelphia and plays an equal amount of seasons there, and then a few more for another team before retiring, would you want him wearing one of those other teams’ caps to the HOF?  I’ll answer that for ya: no.  Mike Trout is an Angel and he belongs to them, unless he plays 10 years for some other team, curse me for even mentioning it.  That’s how I feel about Vlad.  He should wear an Expos cap to the HOF.  Someday, the Angels will get their player there.  

 

F#@$ Glen and F^&@* the Expos… Go Angels! â€“ Nate

 

Baseball writers seem to have this love affair with the Expos; we are constantly reminded on twitter or the TV who the last remaining Expos are in MLB.  This sentiment has also bled into HOF discussions as MLB writers and pundits are desperate to get another Expos hat into the HOF with Carter and Dawson.   These journalists hang on to the Expos like that hot ex-girlfriend that dumped them and now they’re semi-stalking her around town just to get another glimpse.

 

A quick look at Valdy’s baseball-reference page shows that he never once made it to the playoffs as a member of the Expos.  As a member of the Angels he made it five out of the six years he was with the team.  He carried the team on his back in an epic 2004 MVP season, his first with the Angels, reinvigorating the Angels fan base after a disastrous 2003 World Series hangover season.  Valdy came in and lead the Angels to 92 wins, an improvement of 15 wins from the previous season and a trip back to the ALDS.  In fact, even in the lone season the Angels didn’t make the playoffs they still managed 89 wins, the lowest win total while Valdy was an Angel.  The remaining win totals: 95, 94, 100, and 97.  

 

Today we get the pleasure of watching Mike Trout play baseball, a Phenom that you can’t take your eyes off of and don’t get me wrong, I realize how lucky we are to have him, but Valdy was even more exciting to watch.  You never knew if he was going to golf a pitch that bounced four feet in front of the plate into right field, or if he was going to gun someone out at the plate from the warning track, or hit a Roberto Clemente like opposite field home run on a pitch at his eyeballs.  Sure he could also strike out on a pitch thrown five feet wide, so wide it could be scored as a pick-off attempt, he could air mail his throw so far over the catchers head that it ended up in the FSW broadcast box, and sure he mostly struggled in the playoffs, but the excitement of watching him play was unparalleled.  Add that with his infectious smile, and his Aybar like goofiness, he was a superstar that you just couldn’t take your eyes off of.

 

Then, finally, you had the 2009 ALDS against the hated Red Sox that had repeatedly beaten up on the Angels in the playoffs.  Most recently Valdy’s Angels had been swept by Boston in 2004 and 2007, and lost three games to one in 2008.  Angels fans everywhere were dreading the 2009 matchup with Boston, the playoff beat downs had been so bad it was hard to be optimistic.  Then the Angels took the first two games at home and rode into Boston with a two game lead and some confidence, but the game quickly went south, with the Angels down 5-2 in the top of the 8th it felt like if the Angels lost this game that was it, they would be swept in Boston and then lose it in Anaheim, another year and another ALDS beating by Boston. However the first miracle happened, Valdy walked!!!  Later driven in by Juan (not the one that stole the glove) Rivera and suddenly it is 5-4 and the Angels are back in it!  After Jepsen came in and served up his usual assortment of bad pitches, surrendering a run, the Angels entered the top of the 9th needing two runs to at least tie it and survive into the bottom of the 9th… Two quick outs by Izturis and Matthews left hope all but gone against one of the most feared closers in baseball, Jonathan Papelbon.  Aybar (I miss you my sweet prince!) singled and stole second, Figgins walked and Abreu doubled off of the Green Monster driving in a run and the Angels were down one run with two outs.  A Torii Hunter intentional walk brought Valdy up with the bases loaded and the chance to put the Angels ahead and finally slay the Red Sox and then it happened! 

Valdy lined one into CF driving in two and the Angels suddenly had the lead, all of his playoff struggles were forgotten, the Angels got the last three outs and swept the Red Sux, it is my second favorite Angels memory other than the World Series.

 

Since you can’t go over the history of baseball in the 00s without discussing the success of the Angels, and you cannot discuss the success of the Angels without Valdy, I believe he has to enter the Hall as an Angel.  He changed the Angels franchise from just another small market team to a powerhouse that was always in the playoff discussion.  Sure Arte spent a lot of money, but if not for that first big signing he never would have enjoyed this success.   I really believe that if Valdy didn’t become an Angel in 2004, the Angels would have sunk right back into mediocrity and never would have enjoyed the success they had in the 00s.

 

This is the first Angels Hall of Famer right here:

 

 

[Spirit]

This is a really great topic!  Well done, gents!

[halosfan1970]

Solid write-up. Well done.

 

I still think at a basic level the HOF should respectfully defer to the inductee's wish unless there is an overwhelming reason to override that choice. I realize the Wade Boggs situation complicates that, but no one is accusing Guerrero of selling out to the highest bidder. 

[Angels#1Fan]

This is really a tough call for me as an Angel fan because Vlad made his name and baseball legacy as a Expo. But there is no denying the impact he had as an Angel player. Watching Vlad play was a joy, his talent at hitting bad balls was crazy. If Vlad is elected to the HOF and wears an Angel cap he would be a great choice and representative as the first Angel in the HOF! Apparently MLB has a big say in what cap is worn so who knows what they might decide. 

 

I'd like to see Vlad elected to the HOF because I think he is deserving and it would be very cool if he goes in as the first Angel player.

[stormngt]

I don't get it. Montreal has two players in the hall. Angels have none. Angels exist Expos do not. Vlady played eight years with Expos and six with Angels so tenure is pretty close. Vladdy's numberst may have been better with Expos but his accomplishments like MVP and playoffs were with the Angels. Plus the numbers are not that off from each other.

It would be a slap in the face by MLB if he was given an Expo hat

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

The Expos having players in there and the Angels not should be a moot point because MLB shouldn't be deciding based on that fact at all.  It's not about every team being represented it's about the players and what they accomplished with their teams.  I posted in the other thread about this some months back that his per game averages were almost all better while with Montreal with the exceptions being RBI's and runs which are impacted more by the lineup around him than the other stats.  That said the per game averages were pretty close in some cases and didn't favor Montreal quite as much as I thought they would.  It wouldn't be a slap in the face if he went in with either cap since you can make a case for him going in with both. 

[nate]

We can all agree, **** Glen, am I right?

[Kevin]

You've soiled your good name and this site Glen.

With all due respect of course.

[Glen]

You've soiled your good name and this site Glen.

With all due respect of course.

I didn't realize my name was still good.

[Kevin]

You tried to resurrect the after dark forum recently. That made you good in my book.

[Broad Street]

Man, remember that Grand Slam he hit against Boston to tie it up? Only for Washburn to come in and serve one right up to Big Papi. Instant heart ache.

[nate]

Yeah I remember that.  I left to go apartment shopping when the game looked out of reach.  Listened to the grand slam on the radio, and then the Poopi HR.

[Ohtaniland]

I don't get it. Montreal has two players in the hall. Angels have none. Angels exist Expos do not. Vlady played eight years with Expos and six with Angels so tenure is pretty close. Vladdy's numberst may have been better with Expos but his accomplishments like MVP and playoffs were with the Angels. Plus the numbers are not that off from each other.

It would be a slap in the face by MLB if he was given an Expo hat

That's a ridicules argument. He was a 5 - tool player for Montreal. He was scouted and began his professional career there. He's still a legend in Montreal. He was much more exciting to watch in his early career than his late career. Keep in mind that Vlad was signed by the Angels as a free agent and not home grown that played extremely well only to be set adrift when he wanted to keep playing. Edited February 29, 2016 by CALZONE

[stormngt]

That's a ridicules argument. He was a 5 - tool player for Montreal. He was scouted and began his professional career there. He's still a legend in Montreal. He was much more exciting to watch in his early career than his late career. Keep in mind that Vlad was signed by the Angels as a free agent and not home grown that played extremely well only to be set adrift when he wanted to keep playing.

It would be a ridiculous argument had Vladdy's years at Montreal were significantly better than those as an Angel. I am basing my argument that Vladdy's was almost as dominant as an Angel win an MVP as an Angel led his team to 5 division titles as an Angel. AND THE ANGELS EXISTS.

BTW what difference whose farm team he was on?

[Sciosciapath]

Everyone stop your crying. He's going in as an Oriole.

[Billy_Ball]

Yeah I remember that.  I left to go apartment shopping when the game looked out of reach.  Listened to the grand slam on the radio, and then the Poopi HR.

 

Normally I can't stand Berman, but this was pretty cool.

 

[Amazing Larry]

"Juan (not the one that stole the glove) Rivera"

 

Nice pull Nate.

[Inside Pitch]

He's still a legend in Montreal. He was much more exciting to watch in his early career than his late career. 

 

The Expos drew better than 1 million fans all of once during Vlad's full seasons in Montreal - one season they averaged under 8K per game.   It's likely considered a legend that he even played in Montreal because so few ever actually bothered to go watch him play.

[Inside Pitch]

"Juan (not the one that stole the glove) Rivera"

 

Nice pull Nate.

 

That guy's name was Ruben and I imagine that made for a very uncomfortable situation given he was Mariano's cousin.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Inside Pitch

[Billy_Ball]

12 years ago. Crazy how time flies.

 

Yup.  2004.  The year everyone loved Arte.  Lowered beer prices, signed Vlad, Colon, Escobar and Guillen, installed the Daktronics scoreboard, changed the stadium name to Angel Stadium, and threw out the Ceremonial 1st pitch on Opening Day to a thunderous ovation.

[gotbeer]

Cap is an interesting bring up.  Especially considering this years class.  Griffey and Piazza.

 

And the point counterpoint is strangely both arguments for both.

 

Griffey and Piazza both came up big with their original clubs.  But Griffey will go in as a Mariner, while Piazza will go in as a Met.  As far as their new team, I don't think you can see much success with either.  Not looking at stats or results, but I don't think either won the big one with either team.  And with Griffey, you could make an arguement that going in as a Red is a tribute to son and father. 

[Glen]

Speaking of the Expos fetish I'm finally reading "Up Up and Away" by Jonah Keri, about the Expos.  Man, as heartbreaking as 86 was for us, 79-81 were as bad if not worse for the Expos.  It made me feel good about the Angels.

[Angel Oracle]

Both Henderson's HR against the Halos in 9th inning of 1986 ALCS game 5, and Monday's HR against the Expos in 9th inning of 1981 NLCS game 5 were crushers.

 

Difference being that Halos fans finally got to celebrate in 2002, while Expos fans were left with no WS title (or even WS appearance) memories.

1994 was another crusher for the Expos, best record in MLB and then the strike ends the season.

[gotbeer]

Both Henderson's HR against the Halos in 9th inning of 1986 ALCS game 5, and Monday's HR against the Expos in 9th inning of 1981 NLCS game 5 were crushers.

 

Difference being that Halos fans finally got to celebrate in 2002, while Expos fans were left with no WS title (or even WS appearance) memories.

1994 was another crusher for the Expos, best record in MLB and then the strike ends the season.

 

I*f I remember right, in 2002, there was almost a strike to end the season.  Again, if I remember right, the Angels game was the very last game that was playing before the strike was to happen.  Fans showed their disapproval by throwing trash on the field.  And the strike was averted at the very last minute.

[Angel Oracle]

And Scott Stinkinweis decided to blast the fans after that game.

Nice PR, mediocre lefty!