Trying to be competitive versus actually trying to win...

[floplag]

ive been reading all the dumpster diving posts and tier 8 free agent suggestions and i started to wonder, whats the point?

Is it good enough to sign lets say a Span to at least hold down LF in some form, even though he likely wont be enough to get us out of third place?

 

I mean is that all were trying to do right now?  save face, show  some kind of effort to convince the casual fan base that they are making an effort to try to keep selling tickets.... or are we actually trying to compete?

A guy like span isnt a difference maker, he isnt going to put us over the top.  Will we be better, yes, but enough?   i think not.  If we make a move like that we are still a third place team.

 

I fee like its the kind of move that would be blowing sunshine up my arse... trying to convince me that an effort was made when we all know it wont change anything.

I'm sorry but for me, thats not what i want. 

Either go for it, or rebuild, there is no in between at this point.  Nothing else makes any real sense

 

Blowing the luxury tax to still be in third place makes zero sense.  If you are going to blow it then obliterate it and make a run while you still have the best player in the game in Trout and a viable Albert Pujols...  If you just filling in the blanks then trade Trout and start the process now, perhaps Albert might prefer to play elsewhere or retire rather than being the one guy in a AAA team..

Bottom line to me is that we cant have it both ways right now, we don't have the farm for it.  We need to make the moves, or take the step back, not more half measures and dumpster diving. 

[Stradling]

While I agree with you on going for it I disagree on "what's the point of improving the team if we are still a third place team on paper". I obviously don't care that the team might need to go over the luxury tax, it doesn't affect me one bit. I won't agree with you on trading Trout and don't think I will ever be on board with it. Remember how dumb we thought it was when the Rangers traded for Hamels last year after it was assumed they wouldn't compete then they went on a tear? I've said this in another thread but while I don't think the Angels are very good it takes more than one year of being good (Astros and Rangers) to convince me they are for real.

[floplag]

i think you over simplify my point a little... i dont mean there is no point to improving the club, but i think that depends how you define that.
I see little point in low to mid level signings that bust the luxury tax but do not make us legitimate contenders just to fill out a roster and give the "appearance" of making an effort. 
Its true it takes more than one year, but do you really think on paper at least that we are better than either of those teams right now?  Heck, are we really even better than the Mariners at this point? 

[Stradling]

Well if the game was played on paper then The Dodgers and Nationals should have played in the NL Championship game and one of the two would have lost to the Blue Jays.

Who cares (besides you, Claude and publicly Arte) if we go over the tax. We are so close to it, that any signing puts us over. So to say something along the lines of why blow past the tax for a Span type doesn't mean that Span is overpaid and thus put us over the tax. You improve your club and put yourself in a position to compete for the post season. If you made past mistakes that mean you have to go over the tax to do that then you do that, in my opinion. We were one game away from the playoffs last year. We have improved our defense and depth, so why not finish it off and get a starting left fielder. Will it mean we are going to the playoffs, no. Does it give us a better chance, of course. Also before you automatically crown the Astros some great team, look at their record after May of last year. Now look at Texas tell me how much better they are than the Angels on paper.

[floplag]

To clarify, i think we should go over the tax, just not for marginal players.   I dont see Span for example putting us in the mix, but others would. 
Arte's past mistakes are his own, asking us as fans to pay for them is asinine.  Im not in that camp.  
All im saying is that IF we are going to do it, then do it right... dont stick it half way in 

[Stradling]

Like you, I would prefer we go big but a guy like Span with his .350 OBP hitting in front of Trout would be a great addition. He's not a perfect player but you can bat him in front of a perfect player and good things can happen.

[Erstad Grit]

Angels are trying to win. They are not going over the luxury tax. What's so hard to understand?

[floplag]

Angels are trying to win. They are not going over the luxury tax. What's so hard to understand?

 

The fact that we cannot do both under our current conditions.  

[Second Base]

I think Eppler is coming in with a much long term focus. Arte probably laid out three requirements for the job.

1. Build a winner.

2. Do it while staying under the luxury tax.

3. Rebuild the farm.

The end result will be logical timeshares (Nava/Gentry), unproven gambles (Choi), depth building (Pennington, Soto, Ortega), cost-effective moves (Lafromboise, Achter) and relying on youth to step up (Cron, Skaggs, Morin, Bedrosian, Rasmus, Kubitza, Cowart, Hinshaw).

Unfortunately I think the end result the next couple of years at least is going to be an 80-85 win team, when for 10-20 million ,ore they'd be a 90 win team. It just sucks to be so close and have the line drawn in the sand like that. But Arte is a businessman first and foremost. Making money is what matters. Winning is a distant second.

[TroutCron]

It is a real catch 22 at this point. It is hard to build a franchise without a strong farm. It is hard to build a farm if you finish out of the bottom ten. Signing one of the three top LF doesn't make the Angels an instant contender. The rotation is still very iffy and the pen is a major weakness as it stands. The Pujols and Hanilton signings will hamstring the FO until they are off the books. Should they sign one of the LF, sure, but don't expect the post season just because they do.

[Ohtaniland]

It is a real catch 22 at this point. It is hard to build a franchise without a strong farm. It is hard to build a farm if you finish out of the bottom ten. Signing one of the three top LF doesn't make the Angels an instant contender. The rotation is still very iffy and the pen is a major weakness as it stands. The Pujols and Hanilton signings will hamstring the FO until they are off the books. Should they sign one of the LF, sure, but don't expect the post season just because they do.

Albert turns 36 years old in January. Let's see if he can at the very least give us what a 36 year old Hideki Matsui gave us in 2010

.274 / 21hrs / 84rbi's / .361obp / .820ops

.287 / 7hrs / 61rbi's / .389obp / .900ops wRISP

[floplag]

I think Eppler is coming in with a much long term focus. Arte probably laid out three requirements for the job.

1. Build a winner.

2. Do it while staying under the luxury tax.

3. Rebuild the farm.

The end result will be logical timeshares (Nava/Gentry), unproven gambles (Choi), depth building (Pennington, Soto, Ortega), cost-effective moves (Lafromboise, Achter) and relying on youth to step up (Cron, Skaggs, Morin, Bedrosian, Rasmus, Kubitza, Cowart, Hinshaw).

Unfortunately I think the end result the next couple of years at least is going to be an 80-85 win team, when for 10-20 million ,ore they'd be a 90 win team. It just sucks to be so close and have the line drawn in the sand like that. But Arte is a businessman first and foremost. Making money is what matters. Winning is a distant second.

 

For #3 agreed, but you have to have tradeable assets to build a farm short term, we just blew what we had out the door.  The only other option is to trade from the ML club, and we dont exactly have much there that isnt partially tainted either short of Trout.  The problem with all of this though is that it means sacrificing 2-3 year minimum of being also rans in a time when we have the best player on the planet... i dont recall any other franchise doing that, ever.  

If #2 is the real constraint, then we are doomed for the foreseeable future.

This means #1 isnt realistically viable if the other 2 are of higher priority 

 

I guess it comes down to what year they want to win, casue it sure isnt 2016.  

If we are going into that mode then trading Trout is the most obvious move, nothing else makes any sense at all as we literally have nothing else that will fix anything in the next 2-3 seasons. 

Dont get me wrong, it isnt what i want, but right now we have to choose... either pay and win now, or rebuild, there is no middle ground that will achieve either goal within our division. 

Edited December 26, 2015 by floplag

[Vegas Halo Fan]

This team was a game out of a playoff spot a year ago, with all of its flaws and everything that went wrong. As Strad says, the season isn't played on paper. Some teams that are considered a shoo-in for a division title in the spring are out of the race by the first of September. Who would have figured that the Astros would be in first place in the AL West for most of the season, and be a contender for a playoff spot - but they were. You never know how the season will unfold, or what player will be more or less productive than people expect.

[AngelsLakersFan]

I think Eppler is coming in with a much long term focus. Arte probably laid out three requirements for the job.

1. Build a winner.

2. Do it while staying under the luxury tax.

3. Rebuild the farm.

The end result will be logical timeshares (Nava/Gentry), unproven gambles (Choi), depth building (Pennington, Soto, Ortega), cost-effective moves (Lafromboise, Achter) and relying on youth to step up (Cron, Skaggs, Morin, Bedrosian, Rasmus, Kubitza, Cowart, Hinshaw).

Unfortunately I think the end result the next couple of years at least is going to be an 80-85 win team, when for 10-20 million ,ore they'd be a 90 win team. It just sucks to be so close and have the line drawn in the sand like that. But Arte is a businessman first and foremost. Making money is what matters. Winning is a distant second.

 

Trying to do all three is likely a recipe for doing none of them

[Stradling]

One of the reasons I respect what the Dodgers are doing is they are spending so they can keep building their farm system. At some point they will have a more normalized payroll.

[greginpsca]

I believe the 2002 team was just trying to be competitve. They had a $55 mil payroll, and a  mediocre starting pitching staff. The bullpen had Percival, and a bunch of clean peanuts[ Weber, Donnelley,etc.]    Spezio was the 1baseman, a journeyman if there ever was one. I can't think of any org at that time that would want to build a championship quality team with David Eckstein as the SS.  Just goes to show what can happen when guys play to their career average or better. Starting pitchers threw just good enough to get to the 5-6 innings. Rarely did opponents score after the 5-6 innings. That team played good enough defense, and had an offense primed for late innings comebacks.  I know that team was unique, but it shows how you don't have to be a big spender to win.

[Ohtaniland]

I believe the 2002 team was just trying to be competitve. They had a $55 mil payroll, and a mediocre starting pitching staff. The bullpen had Percival, and a bunch of clean peanuts[ Weber, Donnelley,etc.] Spezio was the 1baseman, a journeyman if there ever was one. I can't think of any org at that time that would want to build a championship quality team with David Eckstein as the SS. Just goes to show what can happen when guys play to their career average or better. Starting pitchers threw just good enough to get to the 5-6 innings. Rarely did opponents score after the 5-6 innings. That team played good enough defense, and had an offense primed for late innings comebacks. I know that team was unique, but it shows how you don't have to be a big spender to win.

This ^^^^^^

[Vegas Halo Fan]

Kansas City is further proof of this. Astute trades, building through the minors, strategic free agent acquisitions.

[Stradling]

This ^^^^^^

That's just as much proof to go over the cap and even sign a guy like Span. What that team didn't have were holes in the line up. We currently have offensive holes in our lineup and enough annual revenue to address those holes. In 2002 the TV revenue was probably 20% of payroll. Now Arte wants it to be 90% and he has 3 million fans a year.

[Ohtaniland]

Trying to do all three is likely a recipe for doing none of them

I believe all teams will eventually get below the luxury tax. Teams that have relied on being subsidized by other teams will now have to sink or swim. The owners have figured out that the steroid era built up the luxury tax and that era is over. The super talent pool is shrinking as baseball is returning back to realistic human numbers so the salaries will now need to come down to earth. Baseball owners are now going to be more cautious and conservative about long term deals.

[Stradling]

Kansas City is further proof of this. Sucking for 30 years, Astute trades, building through the minors, strategic free agent acquisitions.

Fixed

[Ohtaniland]

That's just as much proof to go over the cap and even sign a guy like Span. What that team didn't have were holes in the line up. We currently have offensive holes in our lineup and enough annual revenue to address those holes. In 2002 the TV revenue was probably 20% of payroll. Now Arte wants it to be 90% and he has 3 million fans a year.

We can still win with what we have. Everyone has to get on the same page and do their job. Guys like Pujols have to try to get on base instead of trying to round the bases every at bat. It's a team game.

[Stradling]

We can still win with what we have. Everyone has to get on the same page and do their job. Guys like Pujols have to try to get on base instead of trying to round the bases every at bat. It's a team game.

Albert is not living up to his contract but he's hardly the offensive problem.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

We can still win with what we have. Everyone has to get on the same page and do their job. Guys like Pujols have to try to get on base instead of trying to round the bases every at bat. It's a team game.

 

Do you really want Pujols to go for opposite field singles? That just puts him on base and clogs the basepaths - as well as eliminating one of his few benefits as a hitter.

 

Or, just as likely, 4-6-3.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Vegas Halo Fan

[Ohtaniland]

Do you really want Pujols to go for opposite field singles? That just puts him on base and clogs the basepaths.

Or, just as likely, 4-6-3.

Albert's obp in 2015 was .307 which is pathetic and probably a direct result of that stupid home run tote board.