Trying to be competitive versus actually trying to win...

[stormngt]

If you're good with it for another six seasons and he's the guy you're comfortable with in the middle of the lineup then please don't try to bring up why Arte won't spend another $20M. Getting another high dollar player is only an attempt to conceal the real problem.

I don't have a problem with Albert or his contract or his batting behind Trout until there is a better alternative. There isn't any! I think that is what Stradling is saying.

[stormngt]

I'd rather have a team that isn't loyal to its past their prime veterans that wins versus a team that's very loyal to its veterans and loses as a direct result.

I'm fine with Albert playing. The reason? We have no one better to man DH than Albert. He's the best we have there and thus he should play. If his lower body were healthy I'd say he needs to be playing 1B while Cron DH's, but that much has been a problem the last couple years. And as for Weaver? Richards, Heaney, Skaggs, Wilson, Santiago, Shoemaker and Tropeano are all better than him. But sure, let's keep throwing Weaver out there, not because of what he's capable of in 2016, but what he did in 2010. I mean at that rate, Bobby Bonilla should be starting every night for the Mets. He's still under contract, and he really did some impressive things in the 80's. That's how logical it is to have Weaver in the rotation. We could trade both Wilson and Santiago, and I STILL wouldn't put Weaver in the rotation.

A team that isn't loyal doesn't win. The players don't play hard nor are they committed in a disloyal organization. I am surprised that you didn't know that since you seem to be such an expert.

[Second Base]

Skaggs is a prospect. He was in the Angels system and he is now again.

 

You're funny. 

[Second Base]

I don't have a problem with Albert or his contract or his batting behind Trout until there is a better alternative. There isn't any! I think that is what Stradling is saying.

 

And that's the basis of my argument.  Albert Pujols should still be our DH (or 1B if he's healthy) because he's the best option.  Weaver is not the best option at this point in his career.  H's not even the 7th best option. 

[Second Base]

Ok, a complete unknown commodity

 

On the contrary, he's very well known.  He and Carlos Perez were the return when Hank Conger was dealt to the Astros.  Tropeano owns a PCL ERA title.  According the fan graphs, Tropeano has one of the best change ups in all of major league and minor league baseball already.  He was in a battle with Andrew Heaney and Hector Santiago for the 5th starter spot in ST last year.  Tropeano was in the Angels starting rotation for well over a month last year, and did a fantastic job.  

 

We know A LOT about Nick Tropeano and experts/non-experts alike have the consensus that he's a good mid-to-back end starting pitcher.  Unknown commodity is pretty far from the truth. 

[Stradling]

On the contrary, he's very well known. He and Carlos Perez were the return when Hank Conger was dealt to the Astros. Tropeano owns a PCL ERA title. According the fan graphs, Tropeano has one of the best change ups in all of major league and minor league baseball already. He was in a battle with Andrew Heaney and Hector Santiago for the 5th starter spot in ST last year. Tropeano was in the Angels starting rotation for well over a month last year, and did a fantastic job.

We know A LOT about Nick Tropeano and experts/non-experts alike have the consensus that he's a good mid-to-back end starting pitcher. Unknown commodity is pretty far from the truth.

So if he's all that then he's better than CJ, Shoe, Skaggs and Santiago.

I guess we will see. I just think if he's that good then the Angels would have pitched him a lot more last year. Especially with no Skaggs, an injured Wilson, an inconsistent 2nd half from Santiago and a poor sophomore year from Shoe.

[Second Base]

So if he's all that then he's better than CJ, Shoe, Skaggs and Santiago.

I guess we will see. I just think if he's that good then the Angels would have pitched him a lot more last year. Especially with no Skaggs, an injured Wilson, an inconsistent 2nd half from Santiago and a poor sophomore year from Shoe.

 

The Angels would've pitched him more last year, if they weren't as attached to relics of the past (Weav and Wilson), which we've been over ad nauseam.  Sometimes, it sucks having options, because it gives a team an excuse to stash you in the minors, even when Weav was a mess, even when Shoe was struggling, even when Santiago fell off a cliff.  It wasn't until late in the year that he entered the rotation, and was the third best starter we had for a decent chunk of the season.

 

Chances are, he'll be back in AAA this year, because of the aforementioned options.  So will Skaggs.  The team is going to throw Weav out there and hope for something different.  If CJ isn't traded, he'll be out there too stabilizing the back end.  Santiago won't be dealt this winter, so you can count of him as the #4 starter. 

 

In essence, we'll start the year with a rotation that lines up as Richards, Heaney, Weaver, Santiago and Wilson with Shoemaker in the pen or in AAA and Troepnao and Skaggs in AAA.  That's not a good rotation.  But by the end of the year, I'm guessing Weav goes down with a mysterious ailment, CJ will be dealt at the trade deadline or before, and Santiago's Jekyll and Hyde act will land him in the bullpen, where he slots quite nicely. I think by the end of the year, we're looking at Richards, Heaney, Tropeano, Skaggs, Shoemaker, which to me, looks like a good future rotation.  

 

Richards is an ace, Heaney's a steady #2/3, Tropeano will be a consistent #3/4, Skaggs, once back into form will grow into a dynamic #3/4, and Shoemaker will improve upon last year, but not reach the 2014 levels, so he'll be a good #4/5.  That's a young, inexpensive, ideal rotation. 

[Stradling]

Ok so let's say you're right that the team was too attached to Weaver to sit him. Why didn't Trop start any other the 8 or so games Weaver missed, or in place of Shoe? Or in place of the injured Wilson? You blame it on the Angels holding on to the past, well they had probably 15 starts lost between the two and Trop got one start. Do you think Trops average year will be better than Wilson last year?

[tdawg87]

I want to know where to find one of these crystal balls you have that show you what these guys "will" be doing.

BTW what a pitcher has done over very limited starts in the majors or the minors isn't "math". Don't patronize me like you think you're some baseball genius. I know the stats just as well as you do. Skaggs is young but once again, COMING OFF OF TOMMY JOHN SURGERY, in which he missed over a YEAR. Let's assume he'll pick up right where he left off because MATH.

Shoemaker was barely better than Weaver. He actually managed a worse HR/9 and his FIP was also very high. But obviously he WILL be better because you know the future and also math.

Tropeano is the only guy you can make any case for, but he hasn't had anywhere close to a full season under his belt. Weaver has just as much chance of bouncing back and pitching like he did in 2014 as Tropeano has of pitching better than that in his first full season. Regardless of how good you think he may end up being, he was never profiled as anything more than a good back end starter. He was basically a throw-in in the Conger trade.

[mtangelsfan]

You're funny.

Thanks, I do my best

[Docwaukee]

Ok so let's say you're right that the team was too attached to Weaver to sit him. Why didn't Trop start any other the 8 or so games Weaver missed, or in place of Shoe? Or in place of the injured Wilson? You blame it on the Angels holding on to the past, well they had probably 15 starts lost between the two and Trop got one start. Do you think Trops average year will be better than Wilson last year?

He made 7 starts last year.  

[Ohtaniland]

Trying to be competitive versus actually trying to win...?

 

The San Antonio Spurs can answer that question. They are always near the bottom of the draft but manage to make solid trades and FA signings to be in the mix every year. Oh and they have a pretty good coach too.

[Second Base]

This one is actually fairly simple TD.

1. Skaggs - You're absolutely right, he's coming of TJ surgery. But Harvey set the precedent when the Mets held him out the additional half season or so and watched him come back even stronger with no adjustment period. With guys that only take a year, you can expect a half season of numbness in fingers from nerve issues, which wreaks havoc on command and off-speed pitches. It was originally believed that this was unavoidable and something you merely had to work through. The Mets, though not meaning to redefine the recovery period from TJ surgery, discovered that much of those lingering issues weren't necessarily needed to be weeded out as much as they were a byproduct of returning to action too soon. Just because you can throw pain-free at about the same velocity doesn't mean you're fully healed. It was believed that if you didn't throw, scar tissue would harden and cause even worse problems. But we've found that isn't necessarily true either. Through constant but rigorous stretching and mobility exercises, scar tissue will be broken up without pitching that half season of adjustment. We've seen the results of such studies time and again. Even in our own system. Cam Bedrosian's return was a disaster, but once fully healed (no scar tissue or nerve damage) he steamrolled through the system. Cory Rasmus was a cautionary tale within the Braves system. His recovery time and rehab was vigorous based on doctor's orders. The end result was multiple surgeries, loss of valuable development time and a potentially unnecessary shift in role from starter to bullpen. Now obviously he has the stuff, but we've seen glimpses in his time with the Angels that he may turn into a potential front of the rotation type of starter. Because of the oblique injury and a lack of need now, this won't come to fruition with the Angels. So how does this relate to Tyler? The Angels are telling ALL of their pitchers currently rehabbing from TJ surgery that the plan will be year and a half rehab minimum. Tyler should have little or no physical side effects and should be able to step into a potential role based on his ability level almost immediately. I hope that's more sufficient than simply saying "because I'm right" or "math".

2. Shoemaker was bad last year, and better than Weaver. The year before last he was excellent, and still, much better than Weaver. He even had a nice start to year before that, which is anecdotal but means little. The HR/9 was always a skill set that either flourished or suffered with him in the minors. In the less friendly environs, this number inflated, in the more friendly, it shrunk. When he was feeling locked in, it stayed low, when he missed his spots, he would tend to miss up and over the plate. In 2014, when he missed, it was down and off the corners. We knew the HR/9 was going to be the driving force behind his inevitable regression in 2015, though this regression was expected to be steady yet slight, not sudden and distinct. But his HR/9 in 2015 also isn't indicative of his ability to keep the ball in the yard. A regression to the mean is as likely in 2016 as it was in 2015, except this term brings a much more positive connotation. Plainly put, Shoe won't be as good as 2014 or bad as 2015. If we assume a fair midle ground is reached, it's safe to assume the end result will likely be an ERA somewhere between 3.75 and 4.25. That's #4/5 starter territory typically. There is some reason for caution and others for optimism here. First, Shoe lost a full 1-2 mph off his fastball last year. Being as young and healthy as he is, that's a problem. But also, pitchers with his ability to generate swings and miss are more likely to recuperate lost velo, or adjust. There's also the fact that he was playing at a weight around 20-30 pounds lighter last year than the year before, and there's reason to believe that may have been the culprit behind the lost velo.

3. Weaver vs Tropeano. Well, Weav's heading into his mid-30's with an ever diminishing fastball, while Tropeano is heading into his mid-20's with increased refinement. Since you know the numbers as well as I do, I need not patronize you about physical prime. You know Tropeano's approaching it, and Weaver has full on left it. And as far as Tropeano's value in the Conger trade, you couldn't be further off. He was the main component of the trade. The Astros hated losing him, but felt that with guys like McCullers and Appel coming through the system, their upside outweighed Tropeano's refinement. They believed his potential was in the middle of the rotation and so did Dipoto. It was the insistence upon getting a catcher to maintain depth in return that was seen as the "throw in". That was Carlos Perez. That's the one the Astros really missed the ball on. Being so focused on advanced statistics along with pitch framing clouded the evaluation of him, completely writing off the scouting side of things, and the scouting side indicated Carlos had a rocket for an arm, excellent lateral movement and intangibles such as being a likable and effective communicator and a favorite among those prized pitchers of theirs. Calling Tropeano basically a throw in is like saying Skaggs was basically a throw-in from the Trumbo deal. It's inaccuurate to its very core.

Long-winded, and I doubt many will read this, but here's just a glimpse of the thought process going through my mind when coming up with these crystal ball predictions of mine.

Edited December 29, 2015 by ScottyA_MWAH

[Docwaukee]

Weaver is gonna be treated like a 5 inning guy.  Interestingly, Weaver was actually very good the first time through with an sOPS+ of 87.  Second time through it was 130.  Maybe he would fair better in long relief.  

 

I personally think Trop gets discounted because of how he was acquired.  He can't be that good if we got both Perez and him for Conger right?  Well, he made 7 starts so not much of a sample, but his peripherals were outstanding and his stuff is solid.  He's got middle of the rotation potential which is more than we can say for Weave at this point.  However, Weave still deserves a shot to be in the rotation.  

[Hollyw00d]

Albert turns 36 years old in January. Let's see if he can at the very least give us what a 36 year old Hideki Matsui gave us in 2010

.274 / 21hrs / 84rbi's / .361obp / .820ops

.287 / 7hrs / 61rbi's / .389obp / .900ops wRISP

I'll lick a toad before pujols ever has a .360 obp again

[Hollyw00d]

Trying to be competitive versus actually trying to win...?

The San Antonio Spurs can answer that question. They are always near the bottom of the draft but manage to make solid trades and FA signings to be in the mix every year. Oh and they have a pretty good coach too.

The angels aren't in the same realm as that franchise

[Stradling]

We don't draft like San Antonio. I would also say it's much easier to build a basketball team than a baseball organization.

[Redondo]

We don't draft like San Antonio. I would also say it's much easier to build a basketball team than a baseball organization.

 

76ers and the Lakers would like to talk to you.

[Blarg]

He made 7 starts last year.

8 total appearances but only 37 innings. As Tdawg87 would say, math. He had very limited exposure, about 5 innings per start which is not really a starting pitcher, more like a long reliever. I'm not really bagging on him but he wasn't all that effective and as you said we are not urgently in need of filling the 5th starter role. He would have to be lights out amazing in spring training to have a shot at the rotation. Skaggs is probably in the same position.

[Blarg]

ScottyA_MWAH, comparing Harvey and Skaggs is obtuse.

[floplag]

Some of you are on tangents, im not talking about the last 10 years or even the last couple,  I'm talking about the org now.. in the last 12 months or so since the Hamilton thing blew up in our faces.  Everything has changed somewhere in that time. 

 

Whether its buyers remorse, sticker shock, idk... but something has made an about face and weve gone from player, to played. 

You cant fix our issues overnight, and you cant fix them and play for titles at the same time so... where does that leave us as an org and us as fans?  It leaves this fan more confused about what the team is than anytime since the mid to late 70s when i first became a fan.  

Edited December 29, 2015 by floplag

[Stradling]

Some of you are on tangents, im not talking about the last 10 years or even the last couple, I'm talking about the org now.. in the last 12 months or so since the Hamilton thing blew up in our faces. Everything has changed somewhere in that time.

Whether its buyers remorse, sticker shock, idk... but something has made an about face and weve gone from player, to played.

You cant fix our issues overnight, and you cant fix them and play for titles at the same time so... where does that leave us as an org and us as fans? It leaves this fan more confused about what the team is than anytime since the mid to late 70s when i first became a fan.

I agree that it's confusing, but the actual on field production of the team is MUCH better than most decades of this franchise. I still hold out hope, especially since none of these guys have signed that Arte is waiting for the prices to drop then signs a guy. Offense has not been as expensive as it was thought to be so far this off season.

[Angel Oracle]

That is true.

Starting pitching pricing is ridiculous.

5 years/$80 million for a #4/#5 caliber starter like Leake, added to the ridiculous salaries for Price and Grienke and even Cueto who was mediocre in KC, leaves one SMFH.

[Docwaukee]

8 total appearances but only 37 innings. As Tdawg87 would say, math. He had very limited exposure, about 5 innings per start which is not really a starting pitcher, more like a long reliever. I'm not really bagging on him but he wasn't all that effective and as you said we are not urgently in need of filling the 5th starter role. He would have to be lights out amazing in spring training to have a shot at the rotation. Skaggs is probably in the same position.

I know.  Strad mentioned that he only made 1 start.  I was correcting that.  

 

He was actually quite effective during his limited appearances in the majors.  His schedule was markedly inconsistent.  He missed a month from tendinitis.  He got sent up and down 7 times.  (tis the nature of the biz).   He went on short rest after a relief appearance and made a start after a 10 day layoff.  Both of those were 4.1ip performances.  He had one truly bad start where he got pulled early because of his performance and not because of fatigue.  

 

but I agree about his breaking camp in the rotation.  Skaggs as well.  Assuming Wilson is ready to go of course.  Again, Weaver has a rotation slot to lose.  But a lot can happen and at some point, it's likely that both Skaggs and Trop will see considerable time in the rotation.  I could see the halos matching them up.  Skaggs facing teams like the Rangers and other lefty heavy squads.  Trop vs. teams like Houston.   

 

The other thing that we have seen with Weave the last couple of years is that he gets dead arm at the end of camp and is out there throwing even slower early on with a tick up in velo around may.  I could see them starting him on the DL and letting him build up his strength a bit more slowly.  

 

Anyway, we are a ways away from determining who starts the season in the rotation.  

[Blarg]

I have been to Spring training and Weaver loafs it on the practice field. He started his career as an Angel out of shape, showed up for his first Spring and second Spring training out of shape, even Scioscia voiced his disappointment his sophomore season. He just seems like a guy that thinks he can take the Winter off and it will all be there when April rolls around. I've read all the articles about how he dedicated himself to training in the off season and then he is jogging or slow walking while the rest of the pitching squad is putting forth an effort to be ready. He is no Nolan Ryan about his fitness. Hell, he isn't even like CJ Wilson.