Klaw: "Darin Erstad gets named on one ballot. Glad every voter takes his responsibility seriously."

[eaterfan]

If youre going to punish a few players from that era why not punish all of them? How do we know Griffey and Frank Thomas never cheated either?

They weren't indicted for lying about taking steroids. It's not an arbitrary standard. But beside that point just because some people get away with a crime doesn't mean everyone should. Many people in this country have driven under the influence and didn't spend time in jail. Should no one spend time in jail for DUI?

Edited January 7, 2015 by eaterfan

[QuinlansMinion]

They weren't indicted for lying about taking steroids. It's not an arbitrary standard. But beside that point just because some people get away with a crime doesn't mean everyone should. Many people in this country have driven under the influence and didn't spend time in jail. Should no one spend time in jail for DUI?

Ok I get it now.  Only the people who were accused of doing it were guilty.  Everyone that wasnt accused of doing it was innocent.  Makes sense. 

[eaterfan]

Ok I get it now. Only the people who were accused of doing it were guilty. Everyone that wasnt accused of doing it was innocent. Makes sense.

No, you don't get it. I said some were probably guilty. But just because some who are guilty got away with it doesn't mean all of them should.

Edited January 7, 2015 by eaterfan

[QuinlansMinion]

No, you don't get it. I said some were probably guilty. But just because some who are guilty got away with it doesn't mean all of them should.

 

You're criteria is very biased.  Like I said, if you punish one player from the steroid era, punish all of them.  Biggio, Martinez, and Johnson were all part of the steroid era. 

[eaterfan]

No. Punish those who have:

A) Tested positive for PEDs, masking agents, etc.

Been suspended for PEDs even without a positive test

C) Been indicted or convicted of a crime related to PEDs

D) Admitted to using PEDs

E) Apologized for things they've done in the past that we all know to mean PEDs.

I'm not sure you know what biased means. I apply those standards to everyone equally. I don't care the player was an A hole like Bonds or nice guy like Pettite.

Your argument is basically how can we punish Scott Peterson for murdering his wife when O.J. murdered his wife and wasn't punished? How can we punish Barry Bonds for using steroids when we didn't punish Frank Thomas for using them?

Edited January 7, 2015 by eaterfan

[QuinlansMinion]

No. Punish those who have:

A) Tested positive for PEDs, masking agents, etc.

Been suspended for PEDs even without a positive test

C) Been indicted or convicted of a crime related to PEDs

D) Admitted to using PEDs

E) Apologized for things they've done in the past that we all know to mean PEDs.

I'm not sure you know what biased means. I apply those standards to everyone equally. I don't care the player was an A hole like Bonds or nice guy like Pettite.

Your argument is basically how can we punish Scott Peterson for murdering his wife when O.J. murdered his wife and want punished? How can we punish Barry Bonds for using steroids when we didn't punish Frank Thomas for using them?

 

As far as I know Roger Clemens never admitted to using steroids.  Just because you are indicted for something, doesnt mean you are guilty.  He was found not guilty in his trial.  According to you being accused of something is the same thing as being guilty of something. 

[eaterfan]

As far as I know Roger Clemens never admitted to using steroids. Just because you are indicted for something, doesnt mean you are guilty. He was found not guilty in his trial. According to you being accused of something is the same thing as being guilty of something.

There is a different burden of proof required for an indictment than simply being accused. Charges can be brought against anyone but an indictment requires convincing the grand jury there is probably cause to believe something is true.

It is a low standard of proof and certainly lower than beyond reasonable doubt but this isn't a court of law. We aren't talking about putting Bonds or Clemons in jail and them losing their freedom. They just aren't getting into the Hall of Fame. It's a high enough standard of proof for me to do that.

But if you want to argue that they didn't use PEDs that's fine. I can accept puerile might disagree that an indictment isn't enough. The original argument you made that I disagree with was that because other guys are in there who may have used it's unfair to keep out Bonds and Clemmons. Your new argument that they didn't use is at least sound but IMO wrong.

And maybe we shouldn't think of being in the Hall of Fame as an entitlement and not getting in as a punishment. Maybe we should think of it as a reward.

Edited January 8, 2015 by eaterfan

[QuinlansMinion]

There is a different burden of proof required for an indictment than simply being accused. Charges can be brought against anyone but an indictment requires convincing the grand jury there is probably cause to believe something is true.

It is a low standard of proof and certainly lower than beyond reasonable doubt but this isn't a court of law. We aren't talking about putting Bonds or Clemons in jail and them losing their freedom. They just aren't getting into the Hall of Fame. It's a high enough standard of proof for me to do that.

And maybe we shouldn't think of being in the Hall of Fame as an entitlement and not getting in as a punishment. Maybe we should think of it as a reward.

As long as you admit the hall of fame is a good Samaritan club and not really a club to determine the best baseball players, then im cool with Bonds and Clemens being left out.

[eaterfan]

As long as you admit the hall of fame is a good Samaritan club and not really a club to determine the best baseball players, then im cool with Bonds and Clemens being left out.

It's not and a good Samaritan club and it shouldn't be. But cheating in ways that umpires can't catch effect the integrity of the game. I'm fine with A holes like Cobb in there. Just not off field cheaters like Bonds, Clemons, Jackson and Rose.

It will be interesting to see what happens when Big Papi becomes eligible. I wouldn't vote for him because he failed a test for PEDs but if he gets in the voters are biased.

[QuinlansMinion]

It's not and a good Samaritan club and it shouldn't be. But cheating in ways that umpires can't catch effect the integrity of the game. I'm fine with A holes like Cobb in there. Just not off field cheaters like Bonds, Clemons, Jackson and Rose.

It will be interesting to see what happens when Big Papi becomes eligible. I wouldn't vote for him because he failed a test for PEDs but if he gets in the voters are biased.

 

According to Jose Canseco, the man who started the steroids movement, there are already hall of famers who have been on roids, and I believe him.  

 

And every analyst ive seen has said Big Papi is a first ballot hall of famer.  After the Red Sox won the World Series 2 years ago everybody said Papi was a lock.  Yes the voters are biased, and yes its a good Samaritans club as of right now.

[Troll Daddy]

If youre going to punish a few players from that era why not punish all of them? How do we know Griffey and Frank Thomas never cheated either?

We don't know ... I believe all of the newly elected HOF inductees may have done steroids.

I also believe Lou has cheated more than once in his lifetime.

[eaterfan]

You still haven't explained why it's relevant there are other steroid users in the Hall of Fame.

 

It's a really terrible argument. Imagine getting hauled in front of a judge for DUI and saying "My friend Jim drove home from the bar plastered last week and didn't get caught or punished therefore you should let me go". That would get laughed out of court.

 

We don't know ... I believe all of the newly elected HOF inductees may have done steroids.

I also believe Lou has cheated more than once in his lifetime.

 

How many Hall of Fames has Lou been elected to?

[Lou]

We don't know ... I believe all of the newly elected HOF inductees may have done steroids.

I also believe Lou has cheated more than once in his lifetime.

 

you are wrong

[Lou]

According to Jose Canseco, the man who started the steroids movement, there are already hall of famers who have been on roids, and I believe him.  

 

i believe him,too.

 

that doesn't mean i'm ok with it

 

the "everyone is doing it" argument will never be ok with me

[Troll Daddy]

you are wrong

Hardly

[dimitrig]

He was a non-factor in the playoffs offensively and defensively for them.

 

Sounds like a HOF player to me!

 

BTW, Pete Rose belongs. It's the one decision I don't understand at all.

 

Should OJ give the Heisman back?

Edited January 8, 2015 by dimitrig

[eaterfan]

Sounds like a HOF player to me!

 

BTW, Pete Rose belongs. It's the one decision I don't understand at all.

 

Should OJ give the Heisman back?

 

Those are two different things. One of them deals with the integrity of the game and one deals with the character of the person.

[Troll Daddy]

Those are two different things. One of them deals with the integrity of the game and one deals with the character of the person.

I think the steroid era blew the lid off the integrity of the game.

Pete Rose the baseball player belongs in the HOF. Pete Rose the manager doesn't belong.

[eaterfan]

I think the steroid era blew the lid off the integrity of the game.

Pete Rose the baseball player belongs in the HOF. Pete Rose the manager doesn't belong.

 

Those guys shouldn't get in either.

[Troll Daddy]

Those guys shouldn't get in either.

That's the problem ... you really don't know who all those guys are and you'll never will.

[Blarg]

I also believe Lou has cheated more than once in his lifetime.

 

I believe it was death.

[eaterfan]

That's the problem ... you really don't know who all those guys are and you'll never will.

 

Yes, but those we do know shouldn't be allowed in.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Wait, I thought it was only the "morality police writers" who were messing up the HOF by not voting for players based on steroids?

By the way, all the guys in the 50s-60s who used greenies would likely have used steroids if they had them.

Or do you think they only wanted to cut corners to get better if they could get a little better?

"Oh this thing that they arent testing for could make me a lot better? I don't want that!!"

Good point, not that it makes anything right, but guys had been getting an edge far before designer steroids came aboard. Ive maintained for years that steroids started a lot earlier than people believe. And steroids are still very misunderstood to the public. Its not just guys who get big....

[YouthofToday]

Why should known racists, bigots and others who knowingly beat woman be in the Hall while ALLEGED steroid user be prevented?

The moral police have simply got to get a grip on reality. A Hall without Clemens or Bonds is ludicrous. Put a scarlet letter on their plaque if that gets you off.

This sounds like a bunch of monks debating how many angels can dance on a pinhead.

[YouthofToday]

Amphetamines have been around since at least the 60s - steroids since the 70s. If people want to be purists about not cheating folks may not like what they find...