Bobby Valentine: Perry was set to trade Ohtani at deadline, Arte stopped him

[jsnpritchett]

2 minutes ago, stormngt said:

My point is he is given money (either in direct payment or in deferred payments) for ten years of work.  The entire contract should be based on ten year average.  Thats all.  I don't  mind Ohtani going to the Dogs.  I mind the "loophole" to avoid the tax.  I dont like it.

Would you have said the same thing if the Angels signed him to the same deal? 

[Ron Mexico]

7 hours ago, Taylor said:

Next time your son is playing little league with Dino Ebel's son or whatever, get some more tea.

Try travel ball 

[totdprods]

Eh. The Angels were in decent shape late July. It was Arte's last chance to win with Ohtani (and maybe help sway negotiations) and their first true shot at contending in years. Arte has long said his focus is on the fans and their experience. Most fans don't care about the farm. Most fans only care when the team is winning, and don't really care when they're not. It's only us diehards who see the baseball logic. Arte sees it as no more than a passing entertainment moment. When we remove our diehard emotions from the equation, keeping Ohtani was the obvious move to make. It had the best chance of giving the Angels a winning team in the moment and bringing fans in. It didn't work out. Those same casual fans will come back whenever the Angels are winning again. 

Flipping switches, sure, it would've been great to trade Ohtani and get some prospects back, plus keeping the ones we dealt, but while we did trade away a bunch of interesting guys, I don't think we gave away a bunch of future perennial All-Stars. Quero could be Victor Caratini, and he was arguably the best prospect we lost. Our farm is just that bad.

Also, these franchise player deals rarely make the impact people would expect. 

Betts and Price to Dodgers - Verdugo has been decent, now a Yankee, Downs has bounced around, Connor Wong is okay but not looking like much
Goldschmidt to Cardinals - Carson Kelly and Luke Weaver were the big gets, and both have basically flopped and become DFA waiver bait
McCutchen to Giants - hey! A good deal! Pirates got Bryan Reynolds
Longoria to GIants - Denard Span and a slew of flop prospects
Stanton to Yankees - Starlin Castro and a couple prospects yet to have any impact
You can go on with first Verlander trade, Miguel Cabrera, Nolan Arenado, Francisco Lindor, Blake Snell...none of these created franchise-altering returns. 

As nice as it would've been to get a cadre of prospects back from Tampa (who notoriously trades well), I have doubts that it would've done made a massive difference. If anything, Perry's work to trim payroll and get the Angels back into 2nd round comp pick territory might be almost on-par with the type of surefire guy we would've gotten back. 

If the Angels want to rebuild the farm, the best way to do it over the next 1-3 years will be avoiding FAs who cost them a pick and selling high on arb. guys like Rengifo, Ward, Sandoval, and Canning. 
If they sign one-year guys the next two years and flip them at the deadline, they'll arguably restock the farm with the same quality of guys they lost last deadline. 

Not a monumental deficit to overcome, IMO.

[Hubs]

8 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Also, these franchise player deals rarely make the impact people would expect. 

Betts and Price to Dodgers - Verdugo has been decent, now a Yankee, Downs has bounced around, Connor Wong is okay but not looking like much
Goldschmidt to Cardinals - Carson Kelly and Luke Weaver were the big gets, and both have basically flopped and become DFA waiver bait
McCutchen to Giants - hey! A good deal! Pirates got Bryan Reynolds
Longoria to GIants - Denard Span and a slew of flop prospects
Stanton to Yankees - Starlin Castro and a couple prospects yet to have any impact
You can go on with first Verlander trade, Miguel Cabrera, Nolan Arenado, Francisco Lindor, Blake Snell...none of these created franchise-altering returns. 

I keep saying this but the national media and some others push this narrative that this is the way to rebuild your farm. It doesn't work.

[Angelsfan1984]

Again, this is why the ranking system is stupid. Everyone is trading Shiba Inu tokens but somehow our Shiba Inu tokens are not as valuable as theirs. 

 

[Don]

31 minutes ago, Hubs said:

I keep saying this but the national media and some others push this narrative that this is the way to rebuild your farm. It doesn't work.

As long as you’re getting more value than you’re likely to get out of a 61st overall pick, it’s a win

[Hubs]

1 hour ago, Don said:

As long as you’re getting more value than you’re likely to get out of a 61st overall pick, it’s a win

Is it? I think there's more involved. They wanted to keep him, they weren't going to be able to try if they shipped him out.

[stormngt]

2 hours ago, totdprods said:

Eh. The Angels were in decent shape late July. It was Arte's last chance to win with Ohtani (and maybe help sway negotiations) and their first true shot at contending in years. Arte has long said his focus is on the fans and their experience. Most fans don't care about the farm. Most fans only care when the team is winning, and don't really care when they're not. It's only us diehards who see the baseball logic. Arte sees it as no more than a passing entertainment moment. When we remove our diehard emotions from the equation, keeping Ohtani was the obvious move to make. It had the best chance of giving the Angels a winning team in the moment and bringing fans in. It didn't work out. Those same casual fans will come back whenever the Angels are winning again. 

Flipping switches, sure, it would've been great to trade Ohtani and get some prospects back, plus keeping the ones we dealt, but while we did trade away a bunch of interesting guys, I don't think we gave away a bunch of future perennial All-Stars. Quero could be Victor Caratini, and he was arguably the best prospect we lost. Our farm is just that bad.

Also, these franchise player deals rarely make the impact people would expect. 

Betts and Price to Dodgers - Verdugo has been decent, now a Yankee, Downs has bounced around, Connor Wong is okay but not looking like much
Goldschmidt to Cardinals - Carson Kelly and Luke Weaver were the big gets, and both have basically flopped and become DFA waiver bait
McCutchen to Giants - hey! A good deal! Pirates got Bryan Reynolds
Longoria to GIants - Denard Span and a slew of flop prospects
Stanton to Yankees - Starlin Castro and a couple prospects yet to have any impact
You can go on with first Verlander trade, Miguel Cabrera, Nolan Arenado, Francisco Lindor, Blake Snell...none of these created franchise-altering returns. 

As nice as it would've been to get a cadre of prospects back from Tampa (who notoriously trades well), I have doubts that it would've done made a massive difference. If anything, Perry's work to trim payroll and get the Angels back into 2nd round comp pick territory might be almost on-par with the type of surefire guy we would've gotten back. 

If the Angels want to rebuild the farm, the best way to do it over the next 1-3 years will be avoiding FAs who cost them a pick and selling high on arb. guys like Rengifo, Ward, Sandoval, and Canning. 
If they sign one-year guys the next two years and flip them at the deadline, they'll arguably restock the farm with the same quality of guys they lost last deadline. 

Not a monumental deficit to overcome, IMO.

At the trade deadline:  Trout, Rendon, And Drury were all on the IL.  Yes we were close to a playoff spot but with the injuries things were bleak.  

It was a dumbass move not to trade him if you werent all in.

[mmc]

2 hours ago, Hubs said:

Is it? I think there's more involved. They wanted to keep him, they weren't going to be able to try if they shipped him out.

So badly that they didn’t even match his offers

[totdprods]

I wanted Shohei back as badly as any, even to the point where I was okay if it was financially detrimental to the club's ability to compete because frankly, Shohei is a once-in-a-century thing, but 10/$700M, even deferred, is too much, at least for a team like the Angels with Rendon and Trout eating up money. That's like $1.4B committed to three guys, all of whom are in one way or another running about 50% right now. Couple that with a barren farm....yeah, just not a good deal for the Halos. If it had been $400M-$500Mish I'd be a little more upset.

Plus I think Ohtani really wanted to be a Dodger, but since they couldn't offer DH, he wound up here.

[Don]

4 hours ago, Hubs said:

Is it? I think there's more involved. They wanted to keep him, they weren't going to be able to try if they shipped him out.

Sure, there’s more involved in evaluating the situation/decision in the moment, but the trade success/fail threshold is way lower than we’d all like to think.

[Jay]

3 hours ago, Don said:

Sure, there’s more involved in evaluating the situation/decision in the moment, but the trade success/fail threshold is way lower than we’d all like to think.

Yeah no damage done. Angels sucked before/during/after Ohtani.

[Hufflepuff]

On 12/14/2023 at 4:13 PM, Taylor said:

 

Is Bobby V. about to get Clinton'd?

If True, it’s a pretty remarkable track record. It would mean Arte has made the wrong choice in EVERY decision. I’m not even mad, it’s amazing.

 Now just do the opposite of what Arte thinks is a good idea. 

[BTH]

On 12/20/2023 at 10:08 AM, totdprods said:

Eh. The Angels were in decent shape late July.

The issue is they didn’t trade him at the deadline 2022, not 2023.

By the time we got to July 2023, not trading him was understandable.

But to not trade him at the 2022 deadline is malpractice, since Arte was unwilling to match the top offer.

[AngelsLakersFan]

On 12/18/2023 at 7:36 PM, jsnpritchett said:

There's a set interest rate that is factored into their calculation for the net present value of the money and how much will count against the luxury tax.  Not sure why you're up in arms about this.  It's a standard calculation that's used for any contract with deferred money.  The Dodgers aren't doing anything shady here. 

The Dodgers are getting a discount here in terms of cash flow and a lower hit to their luxury tax calculation.

If just the 10th year of the contract was not deferred the AAV would go from $46m to about $50m.

[jsnpritchett]

38 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

The Dodgers are getting a discount here in terms of cash flow and a lower hit to their luxury tax calculation.

If just the 10th year of the contract was not deferred the AAV would go from $46m to about $50m.

Sure, but my point is that it's not like the Dodgers are the only team that can do this. They're not doing anything wrong. 

[totdprods]

3 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

Sure, but my point is that it's not like the Dodgers are the only team that can do this. They're not doing anything wrong. 

Not to mention the fact that Ohtani's numerous endorsement deals and revenue streams also gave him the flexibility to defer that much money. 

It's more that it was good luck and fortune that went the Dodgers way than any crafty tax ... dodging.

[AngelsLakersFan]

3 hours ago, jsnpritchett said:

Sure, but my point is that it's not like the Dodgers are the only team that can do this. They're not doing anything wrong. 

Just like any team could've signed Ohtani. It's technically correct but in practice it's not.

 

[ten ocho recon scout]

I wasn't there so I have no idea. But part of me thinks of the ending to "This Boys Life", when a young Leo DiCaprio and his Mom bail on Robert Deniro. Robert Deniro is Arte here.

Lou would get the reference. I miss Lou.

[stormngt]

On 12/20/2023 at 10:08 AM, totdprods said:

Eh. The Angels were in decent shape late July. It was Arte's last chance to win with Ohtani (and maybe help sway negotiations) and their first true shot at contending in years. Arte has long said his focus is on the fans and their experience. Most fans don't care about the farm. Most fans only care when the team is winning, and don't really care when they're not. It's only us diehards who see the baseball logic. Arte sees it as no more than a passing entertainment moment. When we remove our diehard emotions from the equation, keeping Ohtani was the obvious move to make. It had the best chance of giving the Angels a winning team in the moment and bringing fans in. It didn't work out. Those same casual fans will come back whenever the Angels are winning again. 

Flipping switches, sure, it would've been great to trade Ohtani and get some prospects back, plus keeping the ones we dealt, but while we did trade away a bunch of interesting guys, I don't think we gave away a bunch of future perennial All-Stars. Quero could be Victor Caratini, and he was arguably the best prospect we lost. Our farm is just that bad.

Also, these franchise player deals rarely make the impact people would expect. 

Betts and Price to Dodgers - Verdugo has been decent, now a Yankee, Downs has bounced around, Connor Wong is okay but not looking like much
Goldschmidt to Cardinals - Carson Kelly and Luke Weaver were the big gets, and both have basically flopped and become DFA waiver bait
McCutchen to Giants - hey! A good deal! Pirates got Bryan Reynolds
Longoria to GIants - Denard Span and a slew of flop prospects
Stanton to Yankees - Starlin Castro and a couple prospects yet to have any impact
You can go on with first Verlander trade, Miguel Cabrera, Nolan Arenado, Francisco Lindor, Blake Snell...none of these created franchise-altering returns. 

As nice as it would've been to get a cadre of prospects back from Tampa (who notoriously trades well), I have doubts that it would've done made a massive difference. If anything, Perry's work to trim payroll and get the Angels back into 2nd round comp pick territory might be almost on-par with the type of surefire guy we would've gotten back. 

If the Angels want to rebuild the farm, the best way to do it over the next 1-3 years will be avoiding FAs who cost them a pick and selling high on arb. guys like Rengifo, Ward, Sandoval, and Canning. 
If they sign one-year guys the next two years and flip them at the deadline, they'll arguably restock the farm with the same quality of guys they lost last deadline. 

Not a monumental deficit to overcome, IMO.

Missing the point. 

 

Angels had a choice to trade him or not.  They had to ask are we going to re-sign him or not.  If not, then they should trade.  Would it have turned the Angels into champions?  Maybe not, but getting assets in return for a diminishing asset was the smart play.  They were not smart

[REDneck]

4 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I wasn't there so I have no idea. But part of me thinks of the ending to "This Boys Life", when a young Leo DiCaprio and his Mom bail on Robert Deniro. Robert Deniro is Arte here.

Lou would get the reference. I miss Lou.

Angels are more like DiCaprio in What's eating Gilbert Grape!

My apologies to the sensitive crowd.

[Angelsfan1984]

51 minutes ago, stormngt said:

Missing the point. 

 

Angels had a choice to trade him or not.  They had to ask are we going to re-sign him or not.  If not, then they should trade.  Would it have turned the Angels into champions?  Maybe not, but getting assets in return for a diminishing asset was the smart play.  They were not smart

You are quite literally missing his point. The return in most cases is negligible. The player they get back in the comp pick will likely be as valuable as what they got in the trade. 
 

I think they probably could have done slightly better given ohtani’s impact, but they also could have gotten 3 baldoquins. 
 

id ask you if you understand…but I already know the answer is no. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

12 hours ago, Angelsfan1984 said:

You are quite literally missing his point. The return in most cases is negligible. The player they get back in the comp pick will likely be as valuable as what they got in the trade. 
 

I think they probably could have done slightly better given ohtani’s impact, but they also could have gotten 3 baldoquins. 
 

id ask you if you understand…but I already know the answer is no. 

Obviously we'll never know. That said I still think this idea is bullshit. The Dodgers just gave the dude $70 mil over the next twenty years without knowing if his arm will bounce back. Getting Ohtani at the height of his powers for the final two months and a playoff run was always going to be significantly more valuable than a compensation pick. The Dodgers just paid the equivalent of roughly $25 mil for the right to have Ohtani for a post trade deadline playoff run in 2033... Let that number sink in when you think about how valuable a compensation round pick is.

Also ask yourself as a fan, if the Angels were actually hyper competitive last year and likely to make the playoffs, what would you have been willing to give up to keep Ohtani? There isnt a single fan that would say that a compensation pick was too high a price. Hell we ended up giving up far more for a bunch of trash anyway.

[totdprods]

14 hours ago, stormngt said:

Missing the point. 

Angels had a choice to trade him or not.  They had to ask are we going to re-sign him or not.  If not, then they should trade.  Would it have turned the Angels into champions?  Maybe not, but getting assets in return for a diminishing asset was the smart play.  They were not smart

I mean, at this point…duh? They’re not making smart baseball decisions and haven’t been consistently for a decade-plus. We as diehards want to see the smart baseball decisions.

Arte saw a chance to give the fans something special, as minuscule as it was, and doubled down on that poor baseball decision, thought to be smart fan experience decision. 

At the end of the day, we want to see World Series rings, and I’m sure Arte does too. But he’s also kept the Angels brand making him a shitton of money by feigning a “want to win” face by buying names, whether or not it was smart baseball. He has two goals, win and make money. We as diehards just want to win.

[Tank]

On 12/22/2023 at 10:00 PM, REDneck said:

Angels are more like DiCaprio in What's eating Gilbert Grape!

My apologies to the sensitive crowd.

right now, the dodgers are more like zach and the angels are more like screech.