Loyalty

[REDneck]

Would any of you be loyal to this organization in it's current state in the face of a 700M contract?

[MPohleece]

Good post by TG. And I know he and most here have perspective that this is just entertainment, and that players' decisions are not an entire reflection of who they are and will be.

Yes, we wanted a story book ending, culminating with a ring for Mike and Shohei, but that had about as much chance as flopping quads with this regime anyway. My first reaction from the news was, "Oh..." I'd say Angels have a better chance of becoming competitive faster without $500M+ Shohei.

As for him going to the dogs, wasn't there some article a while back saying playing for the blue was his dream while growing up? It was almost a foregone conclusion. Even if the dogs had offered much less than the others, he would've gone up the 5 anyway.

I'll still be rooting for him to do well except against us. Hope we get a nasty lefty to make him look stupid each AB.

 

[Make Angels Great Again]

2 hours ago, mmc said:

The team refused to spend to the tax until Ohtani was 4 months away from leaving and they didn’t have a choice.  If that can’t be considered a lack of effort I don’t know what can.

I’m sure the potential to have a lucrative career playing a sport counts for something 

So you’re only trying if you spend past the luxury tax? That’s truly stupid

[EDinTUSTIN]

6 hours ago, Make Angels Great Again said:

I don’t think there’s been a lack of effort to put a winning team on the field. It just hasn’t worked out yet

Yes, the effort was there as evidenced by all the moves. They were the wrong moves and moves not made with long-term success in mind -- or in this case even short-term success, apparently. The lack of scouting and GM talent over the last decade has been the overriding issue. I think Arte wanted to win, it is just that he wanted to do so by acquiring big-name talent to load up with stars, and when it wasn't working out, he and the FO became discombobulated and frantic and thought doubling down was going to work; it didn't. They never considered Einstein's axiom as they kept trying the same experiment with the same ingredients as before hoping that it would eventually work. Well, as we all know, it didn't. It was not from a lack of effort, but rather from a lack of people in high places with little to no aptitude or talent for their jobs.

[mmc]

31 minutes ago, Make Angels Great Again said:

So you’re only trying if you spend past the luxury tax? That’s truly stupid

When you’re the type of owner that forces a win now mandate on your GM when your roster has a ton of holes, yeah pretty much

[T.G.]

The word "silly" has been thrown around a bit in this thread.

You know what’s really silly to me? Some of you who think loyalty in sports is silly also think loyalty to a team is some sort of sacred code.

God forbid, someone like @Deek or anyone else decide to root for a different team. Oh, hell no - that's unforgivable.

Talk about silly...

Baseball is just entertainment.

And yet - believe it or not, loyalty does exist in professional sports. I just think it's rare and when it does occur, it's refreshing to me.

My main point is that Ohtani's leaving, makes me appreciate Trout even more. I don't begrudge Ohtani at all - I just wish he had picked a different team.

 

 

[stormngt]

7 hours ago, T.G. said:

We heard it over and over again. Shohei Ohtani wants to win.  No kidding.  Every player wants to win.  Mike Trout wants to win. The difference between Trout and Ohtani is that Trout wants to win as an Angel. Ohtani just wants to win, period.

There’s a difference.

Trout wants to be a part of building a winner.  Ohtani wants to join one.

We also heard over and over again that Ohtani isn’t necessarily about the money.  Well, I see about 700 million reasons to think that isn’t necessarily true.  I’m not judging Ohtani for taking the biggest contract in the history of professional sports.  Heck, no.  More power to him. 

But… in the words of Jered Weaver, “how much do you really need?”

Loyalty. 

Weaver will always be beloved for it.

When Tim Salmon approached free agency for the first time, he told his agent to take the first offer from the Angels.  Salmon was rewarded for his loyalty with a 2002 World Series championship and became the most beloved player in franchise history.

Trout showed his loyalty when he also resigned with the Angels. He could have left.  Most around baseball thought he would.  He didn’t. 

Loyalty.

Salmon, Weaver and Trout’s loyalty isn’t lost on me.  I don’t think it’s lost on most fans.  There’s something special about players who come up through the organization and stay with the organization throughout most, if not all of their career.

Ohtani leaving, makes me appreciate Trout’s loyalty more than ever. 

I have enjoyed every moment of Ohtani’s time with the Angels. I believe he will go down in history as the greatest player of all time.  Losing him is disappointing.

I can now understand what Cardinal fans must have felt like when Albert Pujols left to sign with the Angels.  I understand how disappointed Twins fans must have been to see Torii Hunter leave as well. 

Then again – at least those two guys didn’t leave for a division or cross-time rival.

That’s the thing.  It isn’t so much that Ohtani left the Angels. It’s that he left the Angels for the Dodgers.  The stinking Dodgers.  It’s kind of a slap in the face to Angel fans. The same fans that loved and supported him through his first six years in major league baseball.  The same fans who have lived in the shadow of Dodger fans for years.

It also stings to know he asked not to be traded during this past season because he wanted to try and win with the Angels, only to turn around and head up the 5 freeway to Chavez Ravine when it didn’t work out. 

No loyalty there.

That's also not lost on me. 

Again, the main take away for me isn't so much about Ohtani.  It's about an increased appreciation for Mike Trout and his loyalty to the Angels and their fans.  It's a rare thing this day and age, especially in professional sports.

For the most part well said.  I agree completely on Trout, Weaver, and Salmon.  

Maybe a little harsh on Ohtani "being disloyal".  But we should really appreciate true loyalty of the other three.

Edited December 11, 2023 by stormngt

[Angels 1961]

Trout has been loyal and so was Pujols. Angels kicked HOF Pujols to the curb. I wonder what Trout and Ohtani were thinking about when that happened.

[mmc]

37 minutes ago, T.G. said:

The word "silly" has been thrown around a bit in this thread.

You know what’s really silly to me? Some of you who think loyalty in sports is silly also think loyalty to a team is some sort of sacred code.

God forbid, someone like @Deek or anyone else decide to root for a different team. Oh, he'll no - that's unforgivable.

Talk about silly...

Baseball is just entertainment.

And yet - believe it or not, loyalty does exist in professional sports. I just think it's rare and when it does occur, it's refreshing to me.

My main point is that Ohtani's leaving, makes me appreciate Trout even more. I don't begrudge Ohtani at all - I just wish he had picked a different team.

 

 

No one cares if Deek wants to cheer for the Dodgers, they care if he wants to be an ass about it on an Angels site

[angelsfan100]

[REDneck]

Can we all agree that Salmon, Weaver etc "loyalty" came under a different regime that was winning and considered a good franchise.

Times have changed.

[Taylor]

The term "loyalty" is almost always used in abusive cultures and organizations to demand absolute obedience and looking the other way when bad stuff is committed. I mean, look at how "loyal" police officers are to one another. Or churches that shield sexual predators out of "loyalty" to them. Or every presidential administration from both parties going after whistleblowers who are "disloyal" to the country.

When it comes to an entertainment business where exuberant amounts of money are exchanged, the concept of loyalty doesn't really exist. Yes, Trout is "loyal" to the Angels ... but they paid him (at the time) a record-setting deal. His "loyalty" would have only gone so far had they tried to shaft him.

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, T.G. said:

The word "silly" has been thrown around a bit in this thread.

You know what’s really silly to me? Some of you who think loyalty in sports is silly also think loyalty to a team is some sort of sacred code.

God forbid, someone like @Deek or anyone else decide to root for a different team. Oh, he'll no - that's unforgivable.

Talk about silly...

Baseball is just entertainment.

And yet - believe it or not, loyalty does exist in professional sports. I just think it's rare and when it does occur, it's refreshing to me.

My main point is that Ohtani's leaving, makes me appreciate Trout even more. I don't begrudge Ohtani at all - I just wish he had picked a different team.

Some of this is a generational thing, and while I love how Salmon and Weaver took less to stay an Angel, I've always recoiled a bit when fans or a team talks up loyalty, if only because more often than not a team would always put winning over loyalty.

Two years ago I went on record as saying the Ohtani and Trout situations were very different.  Ohtani had already made the decision to leave everything he knew behind once, only on a much grander scale. The dude left his country, his way of life .. all to pursue his dreams.

My concern then and why yesterday didn't hit me as hard as it has others is simply because I have felt all along that the team absolutely needed to show signs of life to give him a reason to stick around. 

The "don't trade me" thing at the deadline bothers me too, but it's whatever.  They rolled the dice and yesterday they lost, it is what it is. My thoughts at the deadline were really simple, it's great that they are trying to go for it -- but I wanted to see that "energy" carry over to the winter.

Losing Ohtani blows, but they really need to look at this as an opportunity.  They can now free up the DH and possibly use it to keep the two remaining owie boys healthier. They can go back to a 5 man rotation and possibly push a starter to middle relief.  They can hopefully stop putting extra pressure on them to win because "OMG we need to show him we can do it".

Add a pitcher or two.  Add a well rounded OFer like Gurriel Jr who doesnt K a lot, had okay power, gets on base - he's not good defensively but thats why he's going to be available for 3/45 and not 5/125.   Try to find a value guy where you can and then if they are in contention at the deadline do it again.

We don't have to really look to hard to see why they lost Ohtani, it seemed obvious for a while now. I hope they take this time to focus on how to build around what they have so they never find themselves in this situation again.

Success makes people want to stick around, or join the bandwagon.

Last but not least -- F the Dodgers.  I hope all their players get painful papercuts and run out of TP after a raspy poop. 

[Inside Pitch]

6 minutes ago, Taylor said:

The term "loyalty" is almost always used in abusive cultures and organizations to demand absolute obedience and looking the other way when bad stuff is committed. I mean, look at how "loyal" police officers are to one another. Or churches that shield sexual predators out of "loyalty" to them. Or every presidential administration from both parties going after whistleblowers who are "disloyal" to the country.

@cals Would say it better but .... I hope Chuck needs to find an emoji of a chick with blue hair for moments like this. 

Also..  "Kill Whitey!"

[Taylor]

25 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

@cals Would say it better but .... I hope Chuck needs to find an emoji of a chick with blue hair for moments like this. 

Also..  "Kill Whitey!"

I felt my post was fair and balanced. I didn't say anything about race. But since you brought it up, [gets shot]

[Inside Pitch]

6 minutes ago, Taylor said:

I felt my post was fair and balanced. I didn't say anything about race. But since you brought it up, [gets shot]

When I say "Kill Whitey" I mean, Herzog of course. Did you see that Von Hayes trade?  He went full Dipoto before there was a Dipoto.

[T.G.]

1 hour ago, mmc said:

No one cares if Deek wants to cheer for the Dodgers, they care if he wants to be an ass about it on an Angels site

Deek or anyone else

[Docwaukee]

2 hours ago, Make Angels Great Again said:

So you’re only trying if you spend past the luxury tax? That’s truly stupid

It is when you put yourself in a position to let guys like Phil Gosselin, Jack Mayfield, Kurt Suzuki, Jose Rojas, Jon Jay, Kean Wong, Adam Eaton, Jose Iglesias and Juan Lagares  to combine for the number of PA they did in 2021. 

You can't have it both ways.  You can't ignore everything but the major league club with the expectation of being competitive and leave gaping holes at multiple spots.   

[ten ocho recon scout]

4 hours ago, REDneck said:

Would any of you be loyal to this organization in it's current state in the face of a 700M contract?

 

[Docwaukee]

To question Trout's desire to win is absurd.  

Trout believed, like many of us, that the Angels would support the team to the extent it needed in order to field a winner.  He got a taste of how it wasn't working really but Shohei got a full meal of it prior to having to make a decision.  There's no question that if Trout were in a similar spot as Shohei that he's be gone right now.  

Last year really was an unbelievable disaster.  Take payroll as high as it's ever been, sell off the vast majority of your farm system that's worth anything.  And end up with 73 wins.  It's really quite impressive.  How on earth could anyone who is about to commit the next ten years of their career believe that this franchise has any clue on how to win based on what they've done the previous 6, 8, 10 years.  That's a full decade of wash, rinse, repeat.  

If Trout is guilty of anything it's being duped.  

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 hour ago, Taylor said:

The term "loyalty" is almost always used in abusive cultures and organizations to demand absolute obedience and looking the other way when bad stuff is committed. I mean, look at how "loyal" police officers are to one another. 

Or how some people are loyal to movements, and will always look past the reality of any particular incident to say "well, that's different, because that person that did a bad thing is from a particular group my politics support, so it can't be that person's fault for the choices they made".

[ten ocho recon scout]

9 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

To question Trout's desire to win is absurd.  

Trout believed, like many of us, that the Angels would support the team to the extent it needed in order to field a winner.  He got a taste of how it wasn't working really but Shohei got a full meal of it prior to having to make a decision.  There's no question that if Trout were in a similar spot as Shohei that he's be gone right now.  

Last year really was an unbelievable disaster.  Take payroll as high as it's ever been, sell off the vast majority of your farm system that's worth anything.  And end up with 73 wins.  It's really quite impressive.  How on earth could anyone who is about to commit the next ten years of their career believe that this franchise has any clue on how to win based on what they've done the previous 6, 8, 10 years.  That's a full decade of wash, rinse, repeat.  

If Trout is guilty of anything it's being duped.  

In regards to Ohtani, it's simple. You have a natural God given talent that makes you unique in a way that people from around the globe follow your every step, and people born after you retire will talk about.

Your options are to stay at home in your shitty country with no future and a bad life, or immigrate...

I really wish he would have stayed and was hoping he would, but at the end of the day anyone questioning why he did what he did is silly. He gets to play for a first class org that has a packed stadium year round and a guaranteed chance at a ring every year.

I believe he was happy here. And would have liked to stay. But he's gonna see it as the fans see it. The Angels suck. He's got one shot in life, that he's worked his whole life for, to make history. It wasn't going to happen here.

Everyone has to accept that. Forget money, we (the Angels) can't come close to matching what the other guy offers.

It is what it is.

[Taylor]

21 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Or how some people are loyal to movements, and will always look past the reality of any particular incident to say "well, that's different, because that person that did a bad thing is from a particular group my politics support, so it can't be that person's fault for the choices they made".

"Hey look over there."

[Blarg]

21 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

He's got one shot in life, that he's worked his whole life for, to make history. It wasn't going to happen here.

Strange that his choice was a question of loyalties when in the end you need to find your happiness not business partnerships. He is going to be much happier on the Dodgers.

It was a good decision for him to make. Accomplishing his to do list in the short time he has left as an elite athlete over loyalty to an owner that had put the team up for sale.  

[stormngt]

6 hours ago, REDneck said:

Would any of you be loyal to this organization in it's current state in the face of a 700M contract?

All the more to appreciate the loyalty of Weaver, Trout and Salmon.  That was the point of the post.  Not to bash Ohtani but to comment on loyalty.

Edited December 11, 2023 by stormngt