Loyalty

[m0nkey]

7 hours ago, greginpsca said:

Loyalty is a 2 way street. 

 

[Vegas Halo Fan]

7 hours ago, REDneck said:

The team went to a 6 man rotation to accommodate SO...BFD!

It was a BFD. It required carrying an extra starter, and it also upset the routines of five other pitchers when Ohtani wasn't able to pitch and the rotation had to be moved up. Don't underestimate the effects of disruption in the routine of a starting pitcher, especially when it happens multiple times. I will lay money that the Dodgers won't do it. Ohtani basically called the shots while he was here. He decided when he would pitch. He decided when he would be in the lineup. IMO the Angels jumped through an incredible number of hoops for him - including trading for help at the deadline when they could have gotten a significant return of prospects for Ohtani which would have put the team in a much better position than they are in now. At this point the Angels get a second round pick with zero assurances that the player selected will ever amount to anything, even in the minors.

I wish Ohtani well. His team, that is a different story entirely. Just like Freddie Freeman was nothing to me after he moved west, now Ohtani is nothing to me after moving north.

[Justin]

15 minutes ago, Vegas Halo Fan said:

IMO the Angels jumped through an incredible number of hoops for him - including trading for help at the deadline when they could have gotten a significant return of prospects for Ohtani which would have put the team in a much better position than they are in now. 

This is certainly true, but whose fault is it? The Angels acted like a beta male, bending over backwards because he is so terrified of losing the hot girl, even when she gives no indication she is committed. And now she is with the more successful and popular guy. That's how it always ends. 

They can blame Ohtani or they can blame themselves.  

[ScottT]

[Angelsfan1984]

This discussion is already in the angry ex gf stage. He left, get over it. Time to build with the budget. Combine all of the threads and move on already. 

[Make Angels Great Again]

2 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

It is when you put yourself in a position to let guys like Phil Gosselin, Jack Mayfield, Kurt Suzuki, Jose Rojas, Jon Jay, Kean Wong, Adam Eaton, Jose Iglesias and Juan Lagares  to combine for the number of PA they did in 2021. 

You can't have it both ways.  You can't ignore everything but the major league club with the expectation of being competitive and leave gaping holes at multiple spots.   

The angels got put in that position due to horrible development. I don’t think it’s realistic to expect clubs to spend their way out of a problem like that when they aren’t the Yankees or Dodgers. I certainly don’t think it means they aren’t making an effort to win. Owners don’t have unlimited cash flow, unless your name is Steve cohen apparently.

[REDneck]

55 minutes ago, Vegas Halo Fan said:

It was a BFD. It required carrying an extra starter, and it also upset the routines of five other pitchers when Ohtani wasn't able to pitch and the rotation had to be moved up. Don't underestimate the effects of disruption in the routine of a starting pitcher, especially when it happens multiple times. I will lay money that the Dodgers won't do it. Ohtani basically called the shots while he was here. He decided when he would pitch. He decided when he would be in the lineup. IMO the Angels jumped through an incredible number of hoops for him - including trading for help at the deadline when they could have gotten a significant return of prospects for Ohtani which would have put the team in a much better position than they are in now. At this point the Angels get a second round pick with zero assurances that the player selected will ever amount to anything, even in the minors.

I wish Ohtani well. His team, that is a different story entirely. Just like Freddie Freeman was nothing to me after he moved west, now Ohtani is nothing to me after moving north.

I agree to some extent, but I think a lot of teams would have gone to a 6 man to accommodate him possibly the Dodgers in 25...so does this mean he owes the Angels something?

If the reports of him asking not to be traded at the deadline with him having the knowledge that he would not be resigning with the team....then he deserves some vitriol.

I don't know if this is the case.

You raise valid points.

.

 

 

[Angels 1961]

15 minutes ago, Angelsfan1984 said:

This discussion is already in the angry ex gf stage. He left, get over it. Time to build with the budget. Combine all of the threads and move on already. 

Ohtani is gone time to move on. 

[Duren, Duren]

No one really talks about geography and culture. 

Ohtani didn't grow up in North America, cognizant of the rivalries between teams or the emotions associated with their histories. At least not personally though he may have read about MLB history, etc. 

Think of world soccer.

London has three first division teams. Chelsea, Arsenal and Tottenham. They've been bitter rivals for well over a hundred years. Non British players going to any of those teams don't have emotional attachments or hatred towards their same city rivals. 

This applies in so many other scenarios in all sports. Non natives not growing up or personally exposed to these localized rivalries don't have deep loyalty that extends beyond their own relationships. And modern athletes have teams of advisors, economic specialists and marketing groups who could care less about loyalty. 

Like Ohtani, they want a winning culture, a comfortable lifestyle and elite money. 

Loyalty is a projection that fans and media use. Obviously in some cases the relationship between player, team, city does impact their decision making. But it's relatively rare, given other factors. 

As well, I don't believe Ohtani lives in the U.S. in the off season, or is fluent in English. So it's easier to understand a certain emotional detachment. He's essentially a mercenary. Likely the best ever, and has/will rewrite the record books. And his goals are personal. Winning a championship is a goal to add to his legend.

And I doubt this decision just was made recently. He and his handlers very well could have been following the Dodgers intensely and in great detail for a long time. So signing with them is just a step in a process that was already in the making. 

 

[REDneck]

52 minutes ago, Duren, Duren said:

No one really talks about geography and culture. 

Ohtani didn't grow up in North America, cognizant of the rivalries between teams or the emotions associated with their histories. At least not personally though he may have read about MLB history, etc. 

Think of world soccer.

London has three first division teams. Chelsea, Arsenal and Tottenham. They've been bitter rivals for well over a hundred years. Non British players going to any of those teams don't have emotional attachments or hatred towards their same city rivals. 

This applies in so many other scenarios in all sports. Non natives not growing up or personally exposed to these localized rivalries don't have deep loyalty that extends beyond their own relationships. And modern athletes have teams of advisors, economic specialists and marketing groups who could care less about loyalty. 

Like Ohtani, they want a winning culture, a comfortable lifestyle and elite money. 

Loyalty is a projection that fans and media use. Obviously in some cases the relationship between player, team, city does impact their decision making. But it's relatively rare, given other factors. 

As well, I don't believe Ohtani lives in the U.S. in the off season, or is fluent in English. So it's easier to understand a certain emotional detachment. He's essentially a mercenary. Likely the best ever, and has/will rewrite the record books. And his goals are personal. Winning a championship is a goal to add to his legend.

And I doubt this decision just was made recently. He and his handlers very well could have been following the Dodgers intensely and in great detail for a long time. So signing with them is just a step in a process that was already in the making. 

 

This is a very well said and articulate post!

But the gist is that he's no Mike Scioscia or any anyone else that played or managed for both the Angels and Dodgers? Because he's a foreigner?

Joe Blanton? Jeff Weaver? I'm sure there is many more that I'm missing.

Darin Erstad????

Edit: upon further investigation Erstad never played for the Doyers...amazingly he did play for the Halos for 10 years after that first amazing season!

Ok, so who else played for Angels and Doyers...make it a fun thing.

Edited December 11, 2023 by REDneck

[TroutField]

Somewhere in a parallel universe the Angels never hire Jerry Dipoto and end up with Andrew Friedman as Director of player of operations after Tony Reagins got fired. He gets along great with Scioscia, and the Angels turn into a west coast powerhouse. Mike Trout and Shohei Ohtani are in the middle of a successful run of 10-15 straight years of playoff appearances, Scioscia is masterful and we never have to be subjected to these nightmarish last 15 years. 
 

I keep wondering where rock bottom is, and while I know signing Shohei didn’t make sense for the Angels, it still sucks A LOT knowing he’s with the stupid ass dodgers. When  does this team start its upward projectory? I’m so tired of being dog shit and the laughing stock of baseball in every aspect. 

[REDneck]

17 minutes ago, REDneck said:

This is a very well said and articulate post!

But the gist is that he's no Mike Scioscia or any anyone else that played or managed for both the Angels and Dodgers? Because he's a foreigner?

Joe Blanton? Jeff Weaver? I'm sure there is many more that I'm missing.

Darin Erstad????

Edit: upon further investigation Erstad never played for the Doyers...amazingly he did play for the Halos for 10 years after that first amazing season!

Ok, so who else played for Angels and Doyers...make it a fun thing.

Albert Pujols of course.

[mmc]

17 minutes ago, REDneck said:

This is a very well said and articulate post!

But the gist is that he's no Mike Scioscia or any anyone else that played or managed for both the Angels and Dodgers? Because he's a foreigner?

Joe Blanton? Jeff Weaver? I'm sure there is many more that I'm missing.

Darin Erstad????

Edit: upon further investigation Erstad never played for the Doyers...amazingly he did play for the Halos for 10 years after that first amazing season!

Ok, so who else played for Angels and Doyers...make it a fun thing.

Pujols, Tyler Anderson, Howie Kendrick, Adam Kolarek, Jesse Chavez, Chone Figgens, Garret Anderson, Andrew Heaney, Noah Syndergaard, Scott Kazmir, Dan Haren, Zack Greinke, Ricky Nolasco, Jake Lamb, Bud Norris, Tony Watson, Shane Victorino, Reyes Moronta

[REDneck]

14 minutes ago, mmc said:

Pujols, Tyler Anderson, Howie Kendrick, Adam Kolarek, Jesse Chavez, Chone Figgens, Garret Anderson, Andrew Heaney, Noah Syndergaard, Scott Kazmir, Dan Haren, Zack Greinke, Ricky Nolasco, Jake Lamb, Bud Norris, Tony Watson, Shane Victorino, Reyes Moronta

I was about to say Howie and don't know how I missed Tyler Anderson.

I mistook Erstad for Garret..I knew one of them played for the Doyers.

The rest of that list is from google...honestly how many of those guys would you have guessed of the top of your head?

Jesse Chavez has played for 29 teams just in Mexico!

Edited December 11, 2023 by REDneck

[REDneck]

18 minutes ago, REDneck said:

I was about to say Howie and don't know how I missed Tyler Anderson.

I mistook Erstad for Garret..I knew one of them played for the Doyers.

The rest of that list is from google...honestly how many of those guys would you have guessed of the top of your head?

Jesse Chavez has played for 29 teams just in Mexico!

Damn I was going to say Lance Parrish and Bobby Bonds....but Nooo!

[REDneck]

8 minutes ago, REDneck said:

Damn I was going to say Lance Parrish and Bobby Bonds....but Nooo!

Devon MF White....now I did google to verify, but that's a hell of a pull if u ask me!

[REDneck]

8 minutes ago, REDneck said:

Devon MF White....now I did google to verify, but that's a hell of a pull if u ask me!

Oh shit I'm on a roll Rickey MF Henderson...that's right!

[REDneck]

4 minutes ago, REDneck said:

Oh shit I'm on a roll Rickey MF Henderson...that's right!

Alright it's not as an exclusive club as I thought. Frank Robinson!  Chili Davis had almost 2,400 hits is his career, but never played for the Doyers!

Thanks for playing Y'all!

[Angels 1961]

5 hours ago, REDneck said:

This is a very well said and articulate post!

But the gist is that he's no Mike Scioscia or any anyone else that played or managed for both the Angels and Dodgers? Because he's a foreigner?

Joe Blanton? Jeff Weaver? I'm sure there is many more that I'm missing.

Darin Erstad????

Edit: upon further investigation Erstad never played for the Doyers...amazingly he did play for the Halos for 10 years after that first amazing season!

Ok, so who else played for Angels and Doyers...make it a fun thing.

My cousin Andy Kosco

[Angels 1961]

5 hours ago, mmc said:

Pujols, Tyler Anderson, Howie Kendrick, Adam Kolarek, Jesse Chavez, Chone Figgens, Garret Anderson, Andrew Heaney, Noah Syndergaard, Scott Kazmir, Dan Haren, Zack Greinke, Ricky Nolasco, Jake Lamb, Bud Norris, Tony Watson, Shane Victorino, Reyes Moronta

Lou Johnson (Sweet Lou)

[Redondo]

24 minutes ago, Angels 1961 said:

Lou Johnson (Sweet Lou)

My dad caught one of his home run balls

[greginpsca]

 

Ken McMullen,, Bobby Valentine, Andy Messerscmit [spelling?], Frank Robinson,

[Vegas Halo Fan]

17 hours ago, Justin said:

This is certainly true, but whose fault is it? The Angels acted like a beta male, bending over backwards because he is so terrified of losing the hot girl, even when she gives no indication she is committed. And now she is with the more successful and popular guy. That's how it always ends. 

They can blame Ohtani or they can blame themselves.  

I don't know whether Ohtani requested not to be traded at the deadline. If so, you can add another chapter to that.

In fairness, one reason that the Angels landed Ohtani in the first place was that they agreed to let him both hit and pitch.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Vegas Halo Fan

[Vegas Halo Fan]

16 hours ago, REDneck said:

I agree to some extent, but I think a lot of teams would have gone to a 6 man to accommodate him possibly the Dodgers in 25...so does this mean he owes the Angels something?

Not at all. Just that most teams would not have done the same thing - one reason that the Angels landed Ohtani in the first place.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Vegas Halo Fan

[The Ghost of Bob Starr]

On 12/10/2023 at 12:19 PM, jsnpritchett said:

I think the entire concept of "loyalty" in professional sports is kind of silly.

You must be John Rahm’s business advisor.  LOL.  Agree 100%!