Angels acquire Randal Grichuk and CJ Cron for Jake Madden and Mason Albright (option Cabbage, DFA Padlo, place Ward on 60-day IL)

[Warfarin]

2 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

I have been thinking about that for a few days now.  HS players are harder to scout, and usually need 4-5 years to get to the majors.

 

Yeah.  Perry's drafting track record will play out over time, but he's definitely made some promising picks/trades - Neto has been a revelation with his quick ascent and becoming essential so quickly, O'Hoppe looks like a strong acquisition, Moniak has been far more than we could have ever hoped, etc.

If Perry proves to be a good drafter, and Schanuel becomes entrenched as our 1B next year, then that's a promising sign in terms of building the roster over the long-term.

[TurboFan]

1 hour ago, totdprods said:

I'm hoping this winter goes one of two ways...

1) the Angels made the playoffs and re-sign Ohtani. The young core delivered, but we are immediately back in the cycle of needing to support the team without a farm like the last decade. Maybe Perry's quick-to-majors drafting solves that. 
2) the Angels miss the playoffs, Ohtani walks, maybe Arte sells, and the Angels can finally pull the plug and allow a 1-2 year rebuild. Keep Neto, Detmers, O'Hoppe, Moniak, see who you can get for Sandoval, Ward, Rengifo, Thaiss, Canning, Estevez, Drury. Go the full rebuild mode, sign a bunch of cheap rebound FAs to plug the gaps, let the kids churn for a year or two, and hope it all coalesces around 2025/2026.|

That's giving me a little bit of peace in these trades. 

1 hour ago, totdprods said:

Well, there's still the third - and maybe likeliest scenario. 

The Angels don't make the playoffs, Ohtani walks, and they don't go full rebuild, instead desperately trying to immediately compete again in a stacked division, signing a bunch of bad deals for mid/big names to try and replace Ohtani and appease casual fans with name familiarity, driving payroll way back up, all with no farm to support.

If they fall short and Ohtani walks, they need to give up on this 'all-in to win' mentality that's dominated the Trout window, acknowledge that they need to commit to the farm, and endure a season or two of a team with very little expectation of competing. Trade away controllable talent like Sandoval and Canning and Ward ASAP instead of letting them walk and keep drafting solid, quick-to-bigs guys.

Quote

 

How about a forth scenario? I know many here think that if the Angels fail to make the playoffs, we lose Ohtani to free agency. I don’t think that is a foregone conclusion. Hear me out. While that might be a logical and correct conclusion for most any shining star, I don’t think Ohtani is just any shining star. He is probably not motivated by top dollar like many we have seen. More than top dollar he wants to play out his career with a team that will partner with him to achieve his true motivation - to be known as the greatest player to ever play the game. The Angels have bent over backwards to be that partner to the point he calls almost all of his own shots on how he is used. I suspect he appreciates that. He knows that some teams will not be so accommodating. Sure the objective of the display of all-in moves made in the last week are for the objective of making the playoffs now, but I suspect that possibly even more than that it is to retain Ohtani in any case, and also demonstrate to Trout that the Angels are dead serious about getting him deep into the postseason as Arte has promised Trout he would try his best to do. So I believe (perhaps a minority opinion) that Ohtani will possibly extend even if the Angels miss the playoffs, as long as Ohtani is impressed by the management’s effort and believes next year will be better (player health being better). I think the Angels should offer Ohtani a high annual salary deal with an opt-out option for him each and every year. In other words, we went all-in balls to the wall in 2023, and we commit to it again in 2024, etc. and if we don’t keep our promise, we won’t hold you here if you would rather leave.  The Angels must say “if we go down, we are going down fighting for all our worth.” Whether they succeed or fail at making playoffs, in this scenario with Ohtani and Trout, the Angels cannot afford to approach it in reserved fashion. And they are not thus far.

[Second Base]

5 minutes ago, mmc said:

Surprised people are surprised... Did you guys really think the Giolito trade was going to be the only significant trade? 

I was surprised, mostly because I didn't think the Angels had the pieces to outbid other teams. But like Moustakas and Escobar, the price/demand proved low enough that the Angels had an opportunity to improve, and they did. 

[Torridd]

1 hour ago, Angels 1961 said:

What if Minasian really shocks everyone and get Verlander.

We don't need him.

[No Roles]

this angels season is going just like the lakers season (hope we fair as well or better) i'd be satisfied with an alcs berth !!!

[Warfarin]

1 minute ago, TurboFan said:

How about a forth scenario? I know many here think that if the Angels fail to make the playoffs, we lose Ohtani to free agency. I don’t think that is a foregone conclusion. Hear me out. While that might be a logical and correct conclusion for most any shining star, I don’t think Ohtani is just any shining star. He is probably not motivated by top dollar like many we have seen. More than top dollar he wants to play out his career with a team that will partner with him to achieve his true motivation - to be known as the greatest player to ever play the game. The Angels have bent over backwards to be that partner to the point he calls almost all of his own shots on how he is used. I suspect he appreciates that. He knows that some teams will not be so accommodating. Sure the objective of the display of all-in moves made in the last week are for the objective of making the playoffs now, but I suspect that possibly even more than that it is to retain Ohtani in any case, and also demonstrate to Trout that the Angels are dead serious about getting him deep into the postseason as Arte has promised Trout he would try his best to do. So I believe (perhaps a minority opinion) that Ohtani will possibly extend even if the Angels miss the playoffs, as long as Ohtani is impressed by the management’s effort and believes next year will be better (player health being better). I think the Angels should offer Ohtani a high annual salary deal with an opt-out option for him each and every year. In other words, we went all-in balls to the wall in 2023, and we commit to it again in 2024, etc. and if we don’t keep our promise, we won’t hold you here if you would rather leave.  The Angels must say “if we go down, we are going down fighting for all our worth.” Whether they succeed or fail at making playoffs, in this scenario with Ohtani and Trout, the Angels cannot afford to approach it in reserved fashion. And they are not thus far.

It has always seemed a little odd to me that a lot feel that Ohtani's decision will come down to whether or not we make the playoffs.  

Why?  What if we barley make the playoffs and get blown out - does that change the calculus?

I think "Angels make the playoffs in 2023" isn't as important to Ohtani as "how well positioned is this team to keep competing year in and year out, so that I can have as many chances to win as possible," and "who can help me develop my talent the most to create the most impressive legacy as possible?"

So I think if the Angels show they will do whatever it takes to win, and the FO shows to Ohtani it has a strong strategy for developing talent and cobbling together a winner, he will stay.  

One other point to note - when Ohtani first came here, and he played really poorly in spring training, the club could have easily optioned him for a few weeks to figure things out and service-manipulated him.  They didn't, and so he will be a free agent this year instead of next year.  Maybe that will mean something to him, maybe it won't, but I am sure he does remember that.

[No Roles]

orange county is just a different place to live when the angels are relevant

[Angel Oracle]

1 hour ago, Angelsjunky said:

I thought this was a joke at first.

Grichuk is having a flukey season, probably Coors-induced. His true talent level is 2021-22, about .250/.290/.420...in other words, replacement level. Cron is Cron. Both hack and are basically in the Renfroe/Moustakas/Drury school of hitting. We must have the league record for low average, low walk, some pop guys.

Grichuk has a .783 road OPS this season, pretty decent.

[Angel Oracle]

3 minutes ago, Warfarin said:

It has always seemed a little odd to me that a lot feel that Ohtani's decision will come down to whether or not we make the playoffs.  

Why?  What if we barley make the playoffs and get blown out - does that change the calculus?

I think "Angels make the playoffs in 2023" isn't as important to Ohtani as "how well positioned is this team to keep competing year in and year out, so that I can have as many chances to win as possible," and "who can help me develop my talent the most to create the most impressive legacy as possible?"

So I think if the Angels show they will do whatever it takes to win, and the FO shows to Ohtani it has a strong strategy for developing talent and cobbling together a winner, he will stay.  

One other point to note - when Ohtani first came here, and he played really poorly in spring training, the club could have easily optioned him for a few weeks to figure things out and service-manipulated him.  They didn't, and so he will be a free agent this year instead of next year.  Maybe that will mean something to him, maybe it won't, but I am sure he does remember that.

That’s why it’s important for Moreno to re-sign Giolito, Moore, and Lopez at least, to show Ohtani they are serious about winning.

[ArkyAngelsFan]

7 minutes ago, TurboFan said:

How about a forth scenario? I know many here think that if the Angels fail to make the playoffs, we lose Ohtani to free agency. I don’t think that is a foregone conclusion. Hear me out. While that might be a logical and correct conclusion for most any shining star, I don’t think Ohtani is just any shining star. He is probably not motivated by top dollar like many we have seen. More than top dollar he wants to play out his career with a team that will partner with him to achieve his true motivation - to be known as the greatest player to ever play the game. The Angels have bent over backwards to be that partner to the point he calls almost all of his own shots on how he is used. I suspect he appreciates that. He knows that some teams will not be so accommodating. Sure the objective of the display of all-in moves made in the last week are for the objective of making the playoffs now, but I suspect that possibly even more than that it is to retain Ohtani in any case, and also demonstrate to Trout that the Angels are dead serious about getting him deep into the postseason as Arte has promised Trout he would try his best to do. So I believe (perhaps a minority opinion) that Ohtani will possibly extend even if the Angels miss the playoffs, as long as Ohtani is impressed by the management’s effort and believes next year will be better (player health being better). I think the Angels should offer Ohtani a high annual salary deal with an opt-out option for him each and every year. In other words, we went all-in balls to the wall in 2023, and we commit to it again in 2024, etc. and if we don’t keep our promise, we won’t hold you here if you would rather leave.  The Angels must say “if we go down, we are going down fighting for all our worth.” Whether they succeed or fail at making playoffs, in this scenario with Ohtani and Trout, the Angels cannot afford to approach it in reserved fashion. And they are not thus far.

You make a bunch of excellent points. But do we know that Ohtani has said he wants to be known as the greatest player ever? 

~ArkyAngelsFan~

[Tank]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

Yep..   

Hopefully Bluto ends up with the girl (Ohtani) in the end again.

bluto ended up with the girl but moved to washington d.c.

[gurn67]

I don't think Ohtani's decision comes down to whether, or not, they make the playoffs. This team has absolutely been decimated by injuries. Once the decision was made not to trade him, that meant that they hope to resign him. At least they have shown them that if they have a chance at the post-season, they're willing to make a run at it. Whether that's enough. Who knows? I still think he might stay with the Angels if he's given opt outs. 

[Setzer]

Neither one of these clowns can hit outside Coors field but they are upgrades over Padlo & Cabbage. Perry had to make a move with Ward out - I'm just wondering if there wasn't better options out there besides Grichuk and Cron.

[Warfarin]

4 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

That’s why it’s important for Moreno to re-sign Giolito, Moore, and Lopez at least, to show Ohtani they are serious about winning.

I'm personally not particularly inclined to sign a SP to a long-term deal.  Almost all of those deals turn out poorly.  I like Minasian's approach of signing some mid-tier guys to reasonable contracts.  Anderson's hasn't worked out great but he hasn't been awful either.  Estevez has been a great signing.  Same with Drury.  Loup obviously was not, and Tepera was terrible.

I think if you can bat roughly 500 in free agency, while avoiding a catastrophic long-term deal (Pujols, Hamilton, Rendon, etc..), you are in great shape.

[TurboFan]

3 minutes ago, ArkyAngelsFan said:

You make a bunch of excellent points. But do we know that Ohtani has said he wants to be known as the greatest player ever? 

~ArkyAngelsFan~

I have not heard it from his lips of course, he is too modest for that kind of bragadocio. But I heard it from some talking head somewhere, and I can believe it.

[jsnpritchett]

1 minute ago, Setzer said:

Neither one of these clowns can hit outside Coors field but they are upgrades over Padlo & Cabbage. Perry had to make a move with Ward out - I'm just wondering if there wasn't better options out there besides Grichuk and Cron.

Where is your orchestra?

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, totdprods said:

I really liked both, but they're so far back still it's not like they're irreplaceable. This is why we drafted 20 pitchers! Just might need to do it again next year.

"Just might to do it again next year".

I was thinking same thing.

[warped]

It's about time they put a squad around GOAT-TANI

[Warfarin]

8 minutes ago, ArkyAngelsFan said:

You make a bunch of excellent points. But do we know that Ohtani has said he wants to be known as the greatest player ever? 

~ArkyAngelsFan~

I doubt he would ever publicly say that, but it's easy to assume that is likely a goal of his.  He is a once-in-a-generation (or lifetime?) talent that you just never see in this game.  It is hard enough to be one of the few who can be a good MLB hitter, but one who can be both a star hitter AND a star pitcher?  It just never happens.  And so given that, it's fairly easy to assume that he would want to be remembered as one of the greatest ever.

[Tank]

i think with ward done for the year, this was a necessary move. i'd rather have these two, who are known and experienced MLBers instead of cabbage and whoever else. they're not ideal, but they're a step or two over our other options and we know what we're getting for this short-term solution.

on to atlanta.

[Angels 1961]

21 minutes ago, mmc said:

Surprised people are surprised... Did you guys really think the Giolito trade was going to be the only significant trade? 

Minasian trades come out of the blue. Nobody saw Giolito trade coming. Today again was so fast after Ward going down. Minasian has acted quickly I wonder if something was in the works or just came together today. Do I think he is done no. Big splash would be Verlander or Hader. San Diego playing better I think will be buyers. I do believe Minasian has something cooking that could be a big surprise.

[Chuck]

Nolan Arenado wasn't supposed to hit outside of Coors either. 

I'm just saying

[Angel Oracle]

6 hours ago, Warfarin said:

I'm personally not particularly inclined to sign a SP to a long-term deal.  Almost all of those deals turn out poorly.  I like Minasian's approach of signing some mid-tier guys to reasonable contracts.  Anderson's hasn't worked out great but he hasn't been awful either.  Estevez has been a great signing.  Same with Drury.  Loup obviously was not, and Tepera was terrible.

I think if you can bat roughly 500 in free agency, while avoiding a catastrophic long-term deal (Pujols, Hamilton, Rendon, etc..), you are in great shape.

Moore has been good too.

I do wonder how much/money and years it would take to re-sign Giolito.

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Angel Oracle

[Angels 1961]

12 minutes ago, Setzer said:

Neither one of these clowns can hit outside Coors field but they are upgrades over Padlo & Cabbage. Perry had to make a move with Ward out - I'm just wondering if there wasn't better options out there besides Grichuk and Cron.

Not for what Angels have on the farm

[Warfarin]

2 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Moore has been good too.

I do wonder how much/money and years it would take to re-sign Giolito

Yep.

I think Giolotto is clearly a rental.  They will likely go all out to sign Ohtani.  If they are successful, a core of Ohtani, Sandoval, Detmers, Canning, Anderson is likely sufficient.  The 6th SP spot will probably continue to be an optionable spot that they can take advantage of to maximize roster flexibility.  They also still have prospects in AA who are intriguing, and Dana might not be too far away, given how rapidly our minor leaguers are promoted.