Looking at issues

[mtangelsfan]

So a post by @tdawg87 got me thinking, (I know, I know).

anyway he was responding to a post that called the idea of just sending everyone home and giving them money to stay there.  The response was just to call the idea “socialist”.

I was wondering if we just objectively looked at each idea on its own without assigning it a label.

why is it a bad idea?  Why is it a good idea?  Would that changed the way we spoke about issues?

[Blarg]

When the government handed out checks to people so they could get by, they felt it was the cue to send millions to companies so they could get by, that ended up in the trillions. Eventually we have to pay back what the companies took. That's a bad idea.

[Make Angels Great Again]

Because if you can just print money and give it to people, why wouldn't you just give them all a million dollars?

Because when you do that, the currency becomes devoid of any value.

[AngelsLakersFan]

38 minutes ago, mtangelsfan said:

So a post by @tdawg87 got me thinking, (I know, I know).

anyway he was responding to a post that called the idea of just sending everyone home and giving them money to stay there.  The response was just to call the idea “socialist”.

I was wondering if we just objectively looked at each idea on its own without assigning it a label.

why is it a bad idea?  Why is it a good idea?  Would that changed the way we spoke about issues?

Most people are not capable of looking at an issue and a potential solution on it's own and evaluating it based on merit. Just look at the thread so far, two responses and two people who dismiss an idea out of hand because it triggers some preconceived notion they have about the way the world has to work all the time.

[Jason]

10 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Most people are not capable of looking at an issue and a potential solution on it's own and evaluating it based on merit. Just look at the thread so far, two responses and two people who dismiss an idea out of hand because it triggers some preconceived notion they have about the way the world has to work all the time.

MT asked why an idea was bad. They both answered why they thought it was bad. Sure, that issue is much more complicated than what any of us could post in a forum setting

[Jay]

If the government sends me a COVID check, I think I'll give it to @calscuf. Did you know he lives in a trailer?

[Jason]

I think most people’s opinions are so strong about things these days that objectivity isn’t something we should expect. Everyone here is guilty of that. Yes it’s rather simple to just say you disagree with something because it’s “socialist” or “fascist” because these buzzwords do not have the same meanings that they once did. 

[tdawg87]

1 hour ago, mtangelsfan said:

So a post by @tdawg87 got me thinking, (I know, I know).

The fuck is that supposed to mean? I will fight you.

[mtangelsfan]

18 minutes ago, Jason said:

I think most people’s opinions are so strong about things these days that objectivity isn’t something we should expect. Everyone here is guilty of that. Yes it’s rather simple to just say you disagree with something because it’s “socialist” or “fascist” because these buzzwords do not have the same meanings that they once did. 

I think this is one of the reasons for our polarization.  We have collectively lost the ability to look at issues objectively or independently 

[mtangelsfan]

1 minute ago, tdawg87 said:

The fuck is that supposed to mean? I will fight you.

Love you too.

[AngelsLakersFan]

33 minutes ago, Jason said:

MT asked why an idea was bad. They both answered why they thought it was bad. Sure, that issue is much more complicated than what any of us could post in a forum setting

He didnt ask why the idea was bad, he asked why we simply label and dismiss ideas (such as the example he gave) out of hand.

[tdawg87]

"Socialism" is a word that scares a lot of people. But it's a label that gets thrown at anything that suggests legitimately helping people get through a difficult time.

A lot of it isn't realistic. In fact, most of it isn't. But just saying "Socialism!!!" when an idea is brought up that isn't malicious, or biased, or even partisan. It's literally an idea about helping every single person in this country get through a difficult time. Not just the libs. People are struggling. People are out of work. 

It's the same with healthcare. Suggesting that we have a better system in place where EVERYONE can get healthcare. Can it happen? Probably not. But the mere suggestion of it is met with "OMG SOCIALISM". 

The word "Commie" is thrown out a lot and it's equally as ignorant.

 

Now from the other side, most of these suggestions are over the top. How are we going to pay for it? Even taxing the billionaires a ridiculously large amount isn't going to solve those issues.

However, is it possible funds already being used could be allocated towards more pressing needs? How much goes to the MIC? How much goes to bailing out corporations? (That's a both sides issue. They all do it.)

I think this is an idea to change how things currently work, which obviously scares people. I do believe there are people in the Senate who want to stop bailing out corporations and whatever else, and take these funds for things like healthcare reform and helping those in need during a crisis (like Covid shutdowns).

The question a lot of people have is why not just let people go back to work? Well, maybe that's the only realistic option. But suggesting other options to help everyone is not "Socialism". Just like conservatives trying to implement laws regarding abortion isn't fascism.

Edited November 21, 2020 by tdawg87

[gotbeer]

Overall, it's not a bad idea.  but there are some problems with it.  First you have places like Lol Angeles and New Dork that will say I can't live on $600 a week.  Then there are places like West Virginia and such that $600 a week, is hookers and blow everyday all day, with money left over.  So there is income discrepancies all over.  Even in Socal, $600 on the westside vs $600 in the IE is night and day.  Personally, I think the fed should do $300, and states should cover the discrepancies if they see fit.  It should also be on a sliding scale like the stimulus checks, so that people who make very little will get more help than people who have 2 porsche's on the beach.  Second, if you are going to pay people a fixed income, you should not be paying homeless people extra, or welfare, or social security, or any of these types of programs.  That's one of the problems I see with the current Dem bills out there.  They want to give money and money for the homeless and other pork products.  Third it was pushed by an Asian guy, so the numbers have to make sense.  

[Vegas Halo Fan]

17 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

"Socialism" is a word that scares a lot of people. But it's a label that gets thrown at anything that suggests legitimately helping people get through a difficult time.

A lot of it isn't realistic. In fact, most of it isn't. But just saying "Socialism!!!" when an idea is brought up that isn't malicious, or biased, or even partisan. It's literally an idea about helping every single person in this country get through a difficult time. Not just the libs. People are struggling. People are out of work. 

It's the same with healthcare. Suggesting that we have a better system in place where EVERYONE can get healthcare. Can it happen? Probably not. But the mere suggestion of it is met with "OMG SOCIALISM". 

The word "Commie" is thrown out a lot and it's equally as ignorant.

The question a lot of people have is why not just let people go back to work? Well, maybe that's the only realistic option. But suggesting other options to help everyone is not "Socialism". 

I see the "commie" reference being thrown around a lot by people who can't tell the difference - or choose not to make a distinction - between socialism and communism. The distinction is pretty simple. In a communistic society, the government owns pretty much everything of any real importance. The same thing can be said about those who call a single-payer system a "government takeover of healthcare" - which it wouldn't be. It would only take health insurance companies out of the food chain. Those who stand to lose from such a change resort to distorting the truth and making the public fearful of any change from what is currently in place.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Vegas Halo Fan

[NrM]

Socialism is fine with me as long as Bitcoin is the main beneficiary.

Bitcoin 100k within 5 years. Book it.

 

Willing to take bets if anyone is interested

[Adam]

I was looking at your mom’s issues

[Lhalo]

Socialism works until you run out of other people’s money. 

[Lhalo]

1 hour ago, NrM said:

Socialism is fine with me as long as Bitcoin is the main beneficiary.

Bitcoin 100k within 5 years. Book it.

 

Willing to take bets if anyone is interested

If nobody figures out a way to reproduce/exploit bitcoin it will take off like a rocket. People want finite currency not Weimar/Zimbabwe toilet paper dollars.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-19/poker-players-are-enhancing-winning-by-cashing-out-in-bitcoin

[Rico]

Nobody ever asks how we're going to pay for more military spending.  Bombs away boys!

[Make Angels Great Again]

On 11/21/2020 at 4:49 AM, Rico said:

Nobody ever asks how we're going to pay for more military spending.  Bombs away boys!

 

The CARES act cost about 3 military budgets. That was a one time payment to individuals.

"Paying people to stay home" at least to me, implies that it won't be a one time payment. We could start quantifying the thing on how many military budgets it equals.

[UndertheHalo]

You missed the part about how the cares act turned out to mostly be a massive slush fund for corporations.  Convenient that you decided to just indict the part of it where regular people got something.  

Edited November 23, 2020 by UndertheHalo

[UndertheHalo]

The most basic idea of socialism is that the workers who produce everything should be the primary beneficiaries of the fruits of that labor.  

[Lhalo]

4 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

The most basic idea of socialism is that the workers who produce everything should be the primary beneficiaries of the fruits of that labor.  

Yet it never works out that way. It will work this time though. For sure.

[mtangelsfan]

3 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

The most basic idea of socialism is that the workers who produce everything should be the primary beneficiaries of the fruits of that labor.  

That might have played better in the Industrial Age but now there isn’t a lot of production going on unless we give extra money to China.

[UndertheHalo]

3 minutes ago, mtangelsfan said:

That might have played better in the Industrial Age but now there isn’t a lot of production going on unless we give extra money to China.

People still work and create wealth dude.  Technology should make people lives better.  That’s not how our system does it. 

Edited November 23, 2020 by UndertheHalo