In Defense of Eppler

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

Haha, no problem, really. In truth, if the knuckleheads weren't around, the rest of us would look a bit dumber. 

Super good point.  If they weren’t around I’d be the dumbest one here.  Now I actually look brilliant in comparison.  I’m like the 7th dumbest guy.   

[rafibomb]

me whenever i see an Eppler thread

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 hour ago, NrM said:

injuries should never be used as an excuse. every team in the league deals with serious injuries throughout the years. The angels haven't suffered any more than most.

Most of the pitchers you listed that we lost to injuries are garbage 5 starters. 

Adding a guy like Gerrit Cole this year would be a waste. I mean, why would adding someone to a team have any effect, if losing people doesnt.

Lol. This is the lame retard take people who played high school sports, then ended up in a job that sucks, so they pass their workday listening to sports talk radio make all the time.

[rafibomb]

But seriously, thanks for  a very good writeup @Angelsjunky. Most logical people saw this as a transition year and with that mindset there has been a ton of improvement. Everyone honestly just saw contention within reach and hit the panic button when we fell out of it. Next year is definitely the make-or-break year in my opinion. The young talent is trending up and we are one league-average rotation away from being a playoff contender.

[Angelsjunky]

1 hour ago, NrM said:

injuries should never be used as an excuse. every team in the league deals with serious injuries throughout the years. The angels haven't suffered any more than most.

Most of the pitchers you listed that we lost to injuries are garbage 5 starters. 

I don't see it as much of an excuse as, as @Lou said, a reality. The main purpose behind my original post was to go through Eppler's history and see how--at the time--his decisions made sense. We can look back and say "fourth year in a row without a playoff berth" and say he sucks, but that is only looking skin-deep. 

1 hour ago, mymerlincat said:

Remember when the Yankees, instead of using the injury excuse, played like a top 5 team in the league with most of their projected starting lineup on the IL + Severino and Betances?

If you're saying that the Yankees are a better run organization with more resources, I"ll grant you that. The Angels were a mediocre franchise for their first 41 years (1961-2001). From 2002-09 they were one of the most successful franchises in MLB, although haven't been able to extend or return to those heights so I'm not ready to call them a "premier franchise." That would be the Yankees, Red Sox, Cardinals, Dodgers and now Astros (although let's touch back with them in 5-10 years to see if they can maintain). 

Eppler's goal, I think, is to join that inner circle, but it doesn't happen over night. 

1 hour ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

The most common defense of Eppler is that he’s rebuilding, even though he’s not. 

If the goal is to become a premier franchise, or at least one of the top 10, then you don't really "rebuild" - especially if you have a big payroll. The Angels tend to be around 7th in a given year. You don't rebuild with the 7th highest payroll. Instead, you re-tool. You try to be as competitive as possible while restocking the farm, making savvy moves, etc. Eppler has had mixed but overall positive results, although only time will tell.

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 hour ago, mymerlincat said:

Remember when the Yankees, instead of using the injury excuse, played like a top 5 team in the league with most of their projected starting lineup on the IL + Severino and Betances?

 

1 hour ago, Calzone 2 said:

Yankees have been able to survive with a ton of injuries. They’re missing a lot of starters. They play in the AL East which is not easy. 

Yeah. The yankees had a ton of injuries. They did very well playing their kids.

Maybe theres something to that.... yet some of you dont want to wait on our own....

[Stradling]

He’s rebuilding plain and simple.  He’s given out a total of four multi year deals, two of those were two year deals and those are already off the books.  He gave out one horrible 3 year deal and one five year deal.   He hasn’t forfeited a single draft pick and has used all allotted money and International money as well.  He’s given up only one decent prospect and that was to acquire a 26 year old star SS.  He refuses to overpay in prospect capital to acquire players via trade.  It’s a rebuild.   Call it a retool but it is a rebuild.  

[Tank]

1 hour ago, NrM said:

injuries should never be used as an excuse. every team in the league deals with serious injuries throughout the years. The angels haven't suffered any more than most.

Most of the pitchers you listed that we lost to injuries are garbage 5 starters. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

36 minutes ago, rafibomb said:

But seriously, thanks for  a very good writeup @Angelsjunky. Most logical people saw this as a transition year and with that mindset there has been a ton of improvement. Everyone honestly just saw contention within reach and hit the panic button when we fell out of it. Next year is definitely the make-or-break year in my opinion. The young talent is trending up and we are one league-average rotation away from being a playoff contender.

To be fair, in defense of eppler, fixing next year isnt as neat and tidy as "just sign Cole".

We HAVE to sign him (and he very well may not come here). And we still have to replace skaggs. What do we expect from Heaney going forward? Will Ohtani be the same? Etc etc

IMO, its like the economy. Its based on things that happen in decade long events. 

Honestly knowing whether or not eppler made the right moves likely wont be known until hes already gone. If say Adell and Marsh work out, and become the next young all stars of the league, it provides for the next core. If they fail, everything he did was a waste.

Edited August 5, 2019 by ten ocho recon scout

[UndertheHalo]

It’s a good post AJ.  Thanks for all the thought you put into it.  

 

[rafibomb]

4 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

 

Yeah. The yankees had a ton of injuries. They did very well playing their kids.

Maybe theres something to that.... yet some of you dont want to wait on our own....

Seriously though lol

Most of the players filling in for their injured starters were practically all homegrown. Impatient bitches.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Just now, rafibomb said:

Seriously though lol

Most of the players filling in for their injured starters were practically all homegrown. Impatient bitches.

And its not like they drafted those young guys last year, or the year before. 

I assume any regular here follows closer than random fan. Yet Im always surprised how little some pay attention to fine details.

[Second Base]

Believe it or not, Eppler enters this off-season in quite a favorable position.

1. He is building a team with a large market payroll land has 50 million coming off the books. Granted, after arbitration and raises a it's more like 40 million, but he's got a metric ton to spend.

2. He already has a strong offense and a bullpen with it's foundation laid but room for improvement. And even then, his proven ability to unearth quality bullpen arms makes the 2020 bullpen a relative lock to be good.

3. He has a strong flow of position prospects in AAA that are ready to contribute. The youth movement speaks to the long term health of the team he's built. Adell will take over RF, Marsh is knocking on the door, you have Thaiss, Rengifo and Fletcher all ready to produce at the top level, and guys like Rojas, Ward and Walsh waiting for their shot.

4. He'll finally have a healthy Ohtani. This means Eppler's job is extremely simple. Use that 40 million, and sign really good starting pitchers. That's it. Everything else is taken care of. Backload contacts so pitchers will be paid more at the conclusion of Pujols' contact and sign a couple of really good starters. Gerrit Cole and Zack Wheeler perhaps. You throw them in a rotation with Ohtani and Canning and the Angels are suddenly a 95 win team and everyone gets to see Trout play in October.

--_------------

I will say this though. If Eppler F's this up, meaning we enter 2020 with another Harvey-Cahill combo, that MFer needs to be freakin fired.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Meh. On the one hand @Second Base, I agree .... the foundation is there. And we'll save 14 mill likely upgrading from Calhoun to Adell. (I feel like an assh*le saying that).

But the pitching isnt going to be easy to solve. We absolutely have to sign 2 impact starters. 

Easier said than done...

But were still in better shape than some on here want to think

[Angelsjunky]

11 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

To be fair, in defense of eppler, fixing next year isnt as neat and tidy as "just sign Cole".

We HAVE to sign him (and he very well may not come here). And we still have to replace skaggs. What do we expect from Heaney going forward? Will Ohtani be the same? Etc etc

IMO, its like the economy. Its based on things that happen in decade long events. 

Honestly knowing whether or not eppler made the right moves likely wont be known until hes already gone. Of say Adell and Marsh work out, and become the next young all stars of the league, it provides for the next core. If they fail, everything he did was a waste.

Towards the end of writing that thing I started fretting about the same feeling - that he "has to" sign Cole. 

But Eppler can't think that way. Sure, he probably really wants Cole and will do everything he can to convince Arte to open the purse-strings. As I said, it probably will cost around 6/$180M, but it also could cost 7/$210M - like Price, and that isn't looking so good. 

I think the plan is simply this: "Sign or trade for the two best starters we can."

It is really that simple.

They've got some useful starters in-house, but not enough to seriously contend in 2020-22ish. If he misses out this time around, there are a few pitchers next year, but less than this offseason. I think his best bet is to sign who he can this offseason, see how the in-house guys develop, and re-consider next offseason.

 

[mmc]

Man I thought the Eppler Kool-Aid drinkers arrogance in the "Fire Eppler" thread was hilarious enough, but here they are one-upping it and pretending to be victims in this thread .  Can't make this stuff up.

[Jeff Fletcher]

I have written it many times, but I always like to see if I can boil it down even better. 

Eppler’s plan

1. The only way to be a consistent long term winner is to have a very good farm system. 

2. The fast way to do that is to trade away your established players for prospects, lose a lot and get high draft picks. Arte doesn’t want to do that, partly because of his nature and his market and partly because he’s got Mike Trout.

3. The slower way to do that is build your farm system just through your own picks, international signings, etc. It means not trading your established players and it means not trading your prospects either. All you have to trade are impending FAs, which means the players you acquire won’t be that good.

4. Finally, you don’t spend big on prominent FAs until you’ve built the farm to the point that the team is close enough for the FAs to make a difference. In the meantime, you pick up short-term band-aid guys who are relatively cheap (and don’t cost draft picks), so you don’t get stuck with a big terrible contract that prevents you from being able to sign a big contract when you’re really ready. 

That’s what he’s doing. It’s not complicated. It’s not a secret. 

Whether it will work remains to be seen, because it’s not over. 

[Angelsjunky]

17 minutes ago, Second Base said:

This means Eppler's job is extremely simple. Use that 40 million, and sign really good starting pitchers. That's it. Everything else is taken care of. Backload contacts so pitchers will be paid more at the conclusion of Pujols' contact and sign a couple of really good starters. Gerrit Cole and Zack Wheeler perhaps. You throw them in a rotation with Ohtani and Canning and the Angels are suddenly a 95 win team and everyone gets to see Trout play in October.

That's pretty much what I was getting at. Of course it is easier said than done - especially Cole, who is by far the most desireable free agent. Wheeler is second or third, depending upon how you look at Bumgarner.

I think Cole is a legit possible, but not Cole and Wheeler. Maybe Cole and a clean peanut, or maybe two of Ryu/Wheeler/Odorizzi. But Cole and one of those guys might be too much to ask for.

[Stradling]

3 minutes ago, mymerlincat said:

Man I thought the Eppler Kool-Aid drinkers arrogance in the "Fire Eppler" thread was hilarious enough, but here they are one-upping it and pretending to be victims in this thread .  Can't make this stuff up.

Hey you have your cute little thread you can go shit in.  Leave this thread to the grown ups. 

[mmc]

3 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Hey you have your cute little thread you can go shit in.  Leave this thread to the grown ups. 

Whatever you say, Billy

[Jeff Fletcher]

16 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

4. Finally, you don’t spend big on prominent FAs until you’ve built the farm to the point that the team is close enough for the FAs to make a difference. In the meantime, you pick up short-term band-aid guys who are relatively cheap (and don’t cost draft picks), so you don’t get stuck with a big terrible contract that prevents you from being able to sign a big contract when you’re really ready. 

I should add that they are currently stuck with one of those and taking on a second, at a time when even the best-case scenario doesn’t help you enough, would have been a disaster. 

[Angelsjunky]

13 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

4. Finally, you don’t spend big on prominent FAs until you’ve built the farm to the point that the team is close enough for the FAs to make a difference. In the meantime, you pick up short-term band-aid guys who are relatively cheap (and don’t cost draft picks), so you don’t get stuck with a big terrible contract that prevents you from being able to sign a big contract when you’re really ready. 

 

This is key and what, I think, we're wondering and waiting to see. We seem close to that point, with a lot of young players reaching the majors and more not far behind. This offseason's pitching free agent class is better than 2020-21's, and the best pitching prospects are still 2+ years away.

So my view is that the time is now to move beyond the "band-aid approach." The lineup and bullpen is good enough. I really see this team as being only two #3 or better starters away from 90 wins, and thus wildcard contention (matching the Astros is another matter).

 

[MacNasty]

My prob with Eppler is the dude got out from under the "weight" of the inherited coach and then hired the guy who fetched the best coffee.  I don't think Ausmus has the right feel for the top job.  That's gonna be on Eppler.

[ten ocho recon scout]

30 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I have written it many times, but I always like to see if I can boil it down even better. 

Eppler’s plan

1. The only way to be a consistent long term winner is to have a very good farm system. 

2. The fast way to do that is to trade away your established players for prospects, lose a lot and get high draft picks. Arte doesn’t want to do that, partly because of his nature and his market and partly because he’s got Mike Trout.

3. The slower way to do that is build your farm system just through your own picks, international signings, etc. It means not trading your established players and it means not trading your prospects either. All you have to trade are impending FAs, which means the players you acquire won’t be that good.

4. Finally, you don’t spend big on prominent FAs until you’ve built the farm to the point that the team is close enough for the FAs to make a difference. In the meantime, you pick up short-term band-aid guys who are relatively cheap (and don’t cost draft picks), so you don’t get stuck with a big terrible contract that prevents you from being able to sign a big contract when you’re really ready. 

That’s what he’s doing. It’s not complicated. It’s not a secret. 

Whether it will work remains to be seen, because it’s not over. 

From beginning to end, very well said.

[ten ocho recon scout]

15 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

This is key and what, I think, we're wondering and waiting to see. We seem close to that point, with a lot of young players reaching the majors and more not far behind. This offseason's pitching free agent class is better than 2020-21's, and the best pitching prospects are still 2+ years away.

So my view is that the time is now to move beyond the "band-aid approach." The lineup and bullpen is good enough. I really see this team as being only two #3 or better starters away from 90 wins, and thus wildcard contention (matching the Astros is another matter).

 

Maybe. But I think we need that anchor arm. Cole fits perfect.

Problem is, aside from he may not come here, is that we still need, at least, a second arm to back him up.