Skaggs and Heaney

[eligrba]

4 minutes ago, DMVol said:

You’d be selling low...his value isn’t great right now....

It might get worse making his value less. I would take a trade sooner than later. 

[DMVol]

5 minutes ago, eligrba said:

It might get worse making his value less. I would take a trade sooner than later. 

Always a tough call...

[eligrba]

2 hours ago, DMVol said:

Always a tough call...

To me, it looks like what Tampa Bay may have experienced before they found a sucker to take Kazmir off their hands.

[failos]

Heaney still has some good stuff. I trust in him way more than Skabbs--who has no redeeming value.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

Skaggs is stealing from us! HE is almost as bad as Harvey and Cahill all be it 8M less..... He will be gone next season!

Skaggs is consistently inconsistent and has no clue where his pitches are going.

Heaney at least you can count on him to strike out 1+ per inning and a WHIP around 1.2 and he will battle and gut out a start!

 

 

[Inside Pitch]

40 minutes ago, RBM said:

I think it’s time we separate the two. We’ve had them linked through their injuries, their promising stretches and all of their trials and tribulations. 

Heaney is simply a better pitcher than Skaggs. He is the keeper of the two. 

Heaney and Skaggs have been darn near statistical clones as Angels, Heaney just seems to get a longer leash from fans.  

 

[UndertheHalo]

Heaney stepped up for like 4.2 innings. 

[Docwaukee]

thanks for stepping up Andrew.  

his new nickname should be 'one bad pitch'.  

[Troll Daddy]

Heaney is a keeper for sure ... good outing (maybe not on paper) with something to build on. Kid has worked his butt off after TJ surgery to get where he is today. 

I’m a fan

[Hufflepuff]

13 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Heaney and Skaggs have been darn near statistical clones as Angels, Heaney just seems to get a longer leash from fans.  

 

I'm not sure how you figure they're statistical clones. Heaney gets a "longer leash" because his advanced stats are significantly better. Heaney is essentially working off 2 pitches right now (fastball and slider), and rarely throwing his change up (which happened to be a great for him last year). Heaney's Swinging strike rate is at 19.4% which is absolutely amazing. He attacks the zone, has a low walk rate, and is way more efficient with his pitch count. Not only are their stats different, they're just different pitchers all together. Heaney is definitely the better pitcher.

2020 Rotation: Ohtani, Heaney, Canning (potential ace level pitcher), Skaggs, and pick an arm amongst 6 available back end guys. 

That's a very solid rotation. I think our pitching will be fine.

[Docwaukee]

15 minutes ago, Hufflepuff said:

I'm not sure how you figure they're statistical clones. Heaney gets a "longer leash" because his advanced stats are significantly better. Heaney is essentially working off 2 pitches right now (fastball and slider), and rarely throwing his change up (which happened to be a great for him last year). Heaney's Swinging strike rate is at 19.4% which is absolutely amazing. He attacks the zone, has a low walk rate, and is way more efficient with his pitch count. Not only are their stats different, they're just different pitchers all together. Heaney is definitely the better pitcher.

2020 Rotation: Ohtani, Heaney, Canning (potential ace level pitcher), Skaggs, and pick an arm amongst 6 available back end guys. 

That's a very solid rotation. I think our pitching will be fine.

debatable.  Skaggs has a better FIP.  Heaney a better xFIP.  Heaney gives up more hrs.  Skaggs more walks but nether by much.  K rate is similar.  

Hard hit balls in favor of Skaggs (lower rate).  

WPA well in favor of Heaney.  This is where Heaney gets more leeway because it's a measure of what actually happened and what people remember. 

They're only about a month apart in age.  

It's pretty close.  

Skaggs was brilliant for a while last year.  That's why he's so frustrating.  I think he has that in him. 

A Heaney Skaggs combo at the back of the rotation next year would be very strong.  Add a FA to your rotation listed and that looks even better.  

[Blarg]

They both are the train wrecks they are no matter how you try to squeeze lemonade out of these turds. You are all still stuck on the "potential" and "peripherals" mantra but these guys just are not good. If they were good their overall resume would reflect that. But they have been pitching long enough that they are what their basic stats say they are, there is nothing hidden here to the naked eye. 

I'll bet you two hang out at the hardware store and discuss which bag of fertilizer is going to grow the best zucchini. Grab any one of them they are all basically the same shit.

[Inside Pitch]

4 hours ago, Hufflepuff said:

I'm not sure how you figure they're statistical clones. Heaney gets a "longer leash" because his advanced stats are significantly better.

Doc went into the differences in HRs vs Walk rate -- but otherwise they are so close it's not worth bothering with the differences..   

Career as Angels

Heaney - 330 IP, 8.6 H/9, 1.5 HR/9, 2.3 BB/9, 8.6 K/9, 4.23 ERA, 4.33 FIP
Skaggs - 431 IP, 9.0 H/9, 1.1 HR/9, 3.0 BB/9, 8.4 K/9, 4.30 ERA, 3.90 FIP

Seriously, if your entire argument is built on Heaney's swinging strike rate over 16 innings this season then you don't really have an argument at all.  Last year he came in at 11.9 to Skaggs' 11.1.  

You know why he gets a longer leash?  Because the same Angels fans that couldn't get passed Howie Kendrick future batting champion, can't get beyond the expectations that were similarly foisted on Skaggs.  Angels fans have a tendency to base their view of players on what they wanted them to be or what they read in some write up .vs what they actually are.   Skaggs is Heaney, only with the added weight of greater expectations.

Edited June 8, 2019 by Inside Pitch

[Inside Pitch]

10 minutes ago, Blarg said:

They both are the train wrecks they are no matter how you try to squeeze lemonade out of these turds. You are all still stuck on the "potential" and "peripherals" mantra but these guys just are not good. If they were good their overall resume would reflect that. But they have been pitching long enough that they are what their basic stats say they are, there is nothing hidden here to the naked eye. 

I'll bet you two hang out at the hardware store and discuss which bag of fertilizer is going to grow the best zucchini. Grab any one of them they are all basically the same shit.

This is probably worded a tad more aggressively than I would have said it but, you're right.   They are what they are.   Put them at the back of a rotation and the Angels are in good position -- but fronting one...  It's gonna be hit and miss.

Edited June 8, 2019 by Inside Pitch

[Inside Pitch]

Also -- Scotts will really help with those Zuchinis

[ScottT]

20 hours ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

Skaggs is stealing from us! HE is almost as bad as Harvey and Cahill all be it 8M less.....

 

Not even close, bub.

[ScottT]

I find it difficult to criticize Heaney too much for last night... or Ausmus.   Shit happens.

Heaney's numbers so far are bizarre.  Small sample size.  I think he'll improve on last year.  

For some reason, I'm less bullish on Skaggs.  Maybe because today starts with an s. Maybe because it ends with a y.

The point of this thread is spot on though. One or both of them are going to have to pitch well for the Angels to make a run.   You see that in them for four innings, then shit hits the fan.

[Hufflepuff]

17 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Doc went into the differences in HRs vs Walk rate -- but otherwise they are so close it's not worth bothering with the differences..   

Career as Angels

Heaney - 330 IP, 8.6 H/9, 1.5 HR/9, 2.3 BB/9, 8.6 K/9, 4.23 ERA, 4.33 FIP
Skaggs - 431 IP, 9.0 H/9, 1.1 HR/9, 3.0 BB/9, 8.4 K/9, 4.30 ERA, 3.90 FIP

Seriously, if your entire argument is built on Heaney's swinging strike rate over 16 innings this season then you don't really have an argument at all.  Last year he came in at 11.9 to Skaggs' 11.1.  

You know why he gets a longer leash?  Because the same Angels fans that couldn't get passed Howie Kendrick future batting champion, can't get beyond the expectations that were similarly foisted on Skaggs.  Angels fans have a tendency to base their view of players on what they wanted them to be or what they read in some write up .vs what they actually are.   Skaggs is Heaney, only with the added weight of greater expectations.

Definitely not my entire argument, but if Heaney is getting that kind of swing and miss on two pitches... I think he can absolutely take his game to another level once he works his changeup in. I haven't been on the board long, so maybe you're right with people giving Heaney slack for the reasons you mention. I give Heaney slack because I think his potential is much greater than Skaggs. 

[tchula]

On 6/6/2019 at 1:06 PM, Dochalo said:

If we have any chance a making a run, these guys need to step up their game and pitch like solid mid rotation guys and maybe even a bit better.  

Not expecting ace level production, but an era in the mid to high 3's with some actual innings.  They've gotta start being guys who can give you 7 innings and save the pen but without that extra couple of runs that brings them down.  

Heaney had a run of 17 starts with a 3.11 era in 107 ip last year

Skaggs had a run of 15 starts with a 2.31 era in 89 ip last year until he got injured.  

Something similar to that would be outstanding and it's clear they are capable of it.  

I am not worried about Heaney at this point.  This is the beginning of the season for him, and aside from a just a couple of bad pitches he's been very good.  If he's giving up this many homers after another 2-3 games I'll begin to worry.  Skaggs on the other hand is a different animal.  Going into the season, all I hoped for was some longevity.  Even if his ERA will be in the low fours by years end, as long as he gives us 160+ inning I'll be happy.  He needs to get over the hurdle of not having pitched a complete season.  But, with that said, I think the injuries over time has effected his ability to get stronger and physically develop.  I think he could settle into a solid #4 guy (who may have the occasional great year), but before he does that he needs to pitch the entire year without missing any significant time. 

[halomatt]

17 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

 

You know why he gets a longer leash?  Because the same Angels fans that couldn't get passed Howie Kendrick future batting champion, can't get beyond the expectations that were similarly foisted on Skaggs.  Angels fans have a tendency to base their view of players on what they wanted them to be or what they read in some write up .vs what they actually are.   Skaggs is Heaney, only with the added weight of greater expectations.

Exactly this.  These guys are the perfect example of "mid-rotation" starters:  Guys that have potential to be a top-of-the-rotation pitcher, but just can't put it all together with any sort of consistency.  Is it frustrating?  Sure, but that's human nature.  Perhaps its our expectations that need to be adjusted.

[Vlad27Trout27]

Heaney looks like a different pitcher this season, with the increased velocity. Reminder last he was pitching like a solid 2/3 last year before he got gassed. Plus last start, he should probably not have been in the game over 100 pitches. he still building his pitch count, similar to Canning. 

 

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, Hufflepuff said:

Definitely not my entire argument, but if Heaney is getting that kind of swing and miss on two pitches... I think he can absolutely take his game to another level once he works his changeup in. I haven't been on the board long, so maybe you're right with people giving Heaney slack for the reasons you mention. I give Heaney slack because I think his potential is much greater than Skaggs. 

Well, what other data you got? 

I'm genuinely curious as to what it is you think I'm missing -- I've listed their actual body of work as Angels and looked at; pull rates on FB, GB rates, swinging strike info, hard hit info, contact rates, and all of the typical predictive data... most of which slightly favors Skaggs but not enough to argue in his favor.  So what's your opinion based on other than what you have publicly commented and now doubled down on ... which is "swinging stike rate" in 2019, something Heaney's done for all of 16 innings.   Noe Ramirez swinging strike rate sits at 37.5 over 31 innings this season, nearly triple that of Ty Buttrey.   Does he similarly have greater potential as a result?  For someone that came in throwing out the "advance stats" card you're making a pretty significant leap based on small sample size and one metric... particularly given he's faced the Mariners twice -- a team threatening to set the MLB strikeout record on offense and oh yeah his only other start?  Texas -- currently second to the M's in Ks (AL) and 4th overall..    

I like both of them, I still believe they have it in them to be better than they have been. Each has shown they can be more but as Blarg pointed out they both have also shown they are kinda meatheads.   Both entered 2019 with less than 500 MLB innings...  that may seem like enough time but you can make a who's who list out of pitchers that took 500+ innings to figure it out.  

Lastly, I don't have a problem with anyone thinking that Heaney is better, people view players and upsides differently.  What I said was that they were almost statistical clones ... no matter what "feels" you have that say Heaney is better the actual results support my statement.

Edited June 9, 2019 by Inside Pitch

[Angel Oracle]

Tchula brought up a good point.

Heaney got to 186 innings (including one minors rehab start) a year ago, granted they probably should have lessened that workload due to not many innings pitched the previous two years.  He also pitched 184 innings across all levels one other time before coming here.

Skaggs has never pitched beyond 158 innings across all levels before.   Anddd, he’s been a pro pitcher for TEN years now.   At some point, it’s time to either lessen expectations, or cut the losses.

[Inside Pitch]

8 minutes ago, Vlad27Trout27 said:

Heaney looks like a different pitcher this season, with the increased velocity. Reminder last he was pitching like a solid 2/3 last year before he got gassed. Plus last start, he should probably not have been in the game over 100 pitches. he still building his pitch count, similar to Canning. 

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/velo.php?player=571760&time=&startDate=03/30/2007&endDate=06/09/2019&s_type=2

 

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Tchula brought up a good point.

Heaney got to 180 innings a year ago, granted they probably should have lessened that workload due to not many innings pitched the previous two years.

Skaggs has never pitched beyond what, 165 innings, before.   Anddd, he’s been a pro pitcher for TEN years now.   At some point, it’s time to either lessen expectations, or cut the losses.

I have already lessened my expectations.  I believe Skaggs is better than his results, but until he proves that, he is what he is.  Now people on here think he's just awful, he isn’t.  He just isn’t great.  He is perfectly fine at the back end of a rotation.  As for cutting our losses, its a pitcher earning very little comparatively speaking, so whatever losses we are cutting, it isn’t really financial, and as Cahill and Harvey, along with a majority of off season signings have shown, it isn’t easy to find rotation solutions.