Keep bunting at the shift

[T.G.]

1 minute ago, Taylor said:

So, to sum up what you're saying, baseball is a performance based game?

You're the editor...

[arch stanton]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

But if you are a pull hitter, and they shift against you, you probably don’t have the ability to drive the ball into the opposite field gap often enough or else we wouldn’t be shifting against you.  

Shifts are based on ground ball tendencies. They play the short fielder against lefty hitters (and Albert) because they can still make the throw to first and get the out 

[Jeff Fletcher]

I am going to remind you guys that hitting the other way and bunting are two different things. 

First, bunting. With no strikes, the 3B is normally playing is his standard position, with the other 3 infielders on the other side. Bunting is hard now because it’s got to be a very good bunt. With a strike, the 3B might move more toward SS because now if you bunt, you risk it going foul and putting yourself in a 2-strike hole. Obviously, after there are 2 strikes they worry even less about it. When Calhoun bunted against the Twins the other day, it was because the 3B was shifted with no strikes. All of Calhoun’s bunt hits have come with no strikes. La Stella had a bunt hit with one strike, but obviously he’s a way better 2-strike hitter than Calhoun so he wasn’t as worried about it going foul. 

As for hitting the other way, that’s very tough. The reason most guys face shifts is because most guys can’t do it. It’s not just hitting the ball the other way, but hitting it on the ground the other way, which goes counter to two things you’re normally trying to do. Most balls hit the other way are not hit hard, and if those are in the air they are still outs. 

If you don’t like shifts, you need to fill your roster with David Fletchers instead of Kole Calhouns, rather than trying to make Kole Calhoun hit like David Fletcher. 

Of course, Calhoun has a higher OPS than Fletcher right now (797 to 787) because Calhoun hits for more power, which is because he tries to drive the ball instead of just poking it anywhere. 

 

[AngelsLakersFan]

Banning the shift is the exact opposite of what they should be doing. People are lamenting the lack of contact in todays game and the shift is the defensive counter to that. The problem, with just about every issue people seem to have with the modern game, is that power continues to be emphasized. This goes all the way back to the steroid era and the Greg Maddox 'chicks dig the long ball' ESPN ad. Fans love homeruns, and the league has been a supporter in maintaining or increasing homerun levels. Hell they have started juicing the balls the last couple of years to make this happen.

When you push a power based game you are going to get power based side effects. You are going to get guys who don't care about strike outs, station to station base running, zero small ball or guys who refuse to do anything other than pull the ball and swing for the fences. The shift is telling hitters, we know you are trying to hit a homerun and if you fail you are going to be out. Removing the shift increases a hitters positive outcomes from trying to hit homeruns.

Power and contact are natural tradeoffs, and if they want guys to start hitting the ball more they need to decrease the benefit of swinging for the fences, so stop juicing the balls and move the fences back. Banning the shift would be far more embarrassing to the sport than the Angels changing their name to 'LA of Anaheim.'

[Lou]

"After there was literally nobody on the left side of the field.."

the writer of the article obviously doesn't know the definition of "literally"

[Mark PT]

On 5/23/2019 at 9:30 AM, floplag said:

For me its simple, you gotta do something other than play right into what they are trying to force you to do, within your abilities.  Even if it doesnt work, at least you make them think about it and take a few more step back the other way.  
You cant ban it, that time has passed, anymore than you can ban the opener or any of the myriad of other things that a traditionalist would puke at that are simply part of the modern game. 
But you also cant be a mule about it and pretend there are no options and just accept your fate.  

I dont understand the controversy here. This is a no brainer. Shift and bunt. Hitters need to be better and change their, homer or nothing approach. Look at Calhoun over the last 2-3 weeks. He starts trying to hit where the ball is pitched instead of trying to pull everything and now he is a legit threat. 

[floplag]

52 minutes ago, Mark PT said:

I dont understand the controversy here. This is a no brainer. Shift and bunt. Hitters need to be better and change their, homer or nothing approach. Look at Calhoun over the last 2-3 weeks. He starts trying to hit where the ball is pitched instead of trying to pull everything and now he is a legit threat. 

Well, the controversy is simple, bunting isnt an embraced practice any more.
The moneyball approach made that very clear, no bunting, if they want to give you a free out take it, just throw it to first. 
Thats evolved now into the three true outcomes that it plays into even worse. 
Basically bunting is evil in the age of advanced analytics. 

[Mark PT]

1 hour ago, floplag said:

Well, the controversy is simple, bunting isnt an embraced practice any more.
The moneyball approach made that very clear, no bunting, if they want to give you a free out take it, just throw it to first. 
Thats evolved now into the three true outcomes that it plays into even worse. 
Basically bunting is evil in the age of advanced analytics. 

Explain the 3 true outcomes to me, I'm ignorant of this. But I dont care what they say. I would bunt until they came out of the shift. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

23 minutes ago, Mark PT said:

Explain the 3 true outcomes to me, I'm ignorant of this. But I dont care what they say. I would bunt until they came out of the shift. 

Bunting will not make them come out of the shift. It will only make them move the 3B. The other 3 infielders will still be on the right side, unless you change your entire approach and starting hitting the ball the other way regularly. And that’s not easy to do if you’re already in the majors. 

[Blarg]

You are correct, not many players can utilize the whole field if it's not in their training. However moving the 3rd baseman back over gives more of a gap for a late swing by a pull hitter and a better chance to get the ball through the infield on a miss hit. Sure, it's not a big swing in the odds but a little change is better than accepting your fate and not having any chance at a ball hit just off the side off the pitchers mound. 

[floplag]

59 minutes ago, Mark PT said:

Explain the 3 true outcomes to me, I'm ignorant of this. But I dont care what they say. I would bunt until they came out of the shift. 

RE 3 trues, in a nutshell its K, BB, HR... everything else is affected by the defense and outside the players control. 
Its why were seeing guys that have crap averages that K alot being valued as long as they hit bombs and walk.
In that system, bunts, stolen bases, and other traditionally values stats have too high risk to reward and lower values are simply not done.

[Jeff Fletcher]

22 minutes ago, Blarg said:

You are correct, not many players can utilize the whole field if it's not in their training. However moving the 3rd baseman back over gives more of a gap for a late swing by a pull hitter and a better chance to get the ball through the infield on a miss hit. Sure, it's not a big swing in the odds but a little change is better than accepting your fate and not having any chance at a ball hit just off the side off the pitchers mound. 

There is a cost to doing that, though. 

If you bunt it foul, you just cost yourself a strike. And you also may end up bunting a pitch that you could have hit hard. 

I think there’s a time for it, but doing it once in a while or not doing it doesn’t really change the use of shifts. 

[Mark PT]

1 hour ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Bunting will not make them come out of the shift. It will only make them move the 3B. The other 3 infielders will still be on the right side, unless you change your entire approach and starting hitting the ball the other way regularly. And that’s not easy to do if you’re already in the majors. 

Absolutely, agree. But a bunt can get you a hit and it opens up the middle a little more. 

[Mark PT]

55 minutes ago, floplag said:

RE 3 trues, in a nutshell its K, BB, HR... everything else is affected by the defense and outside the players control. 
Its why were seeing guys that have crap averages that K alot being valued as long as they hit bombs and walk.
In that system, bunts, stolen bases, and other traditionally values stats have too high risk to reward and lower values are simply not done.

thanks for the explanation. Personally, I think this approach sucks. This, in my view, leaves too many runners on base. 

[HaloNArizona]

On 5/26/2019 at 10:15 AM, Jeff Fletcher said:

I am going to remind you guys that hitting the other way and bunting are two different things. 

First, bunting. With no strikes, the 3B is normally playing is his standard position, with the other 3 infielders on the other side. Bunting is hard now because it’s got to be a very good bunt. With a strike, the 3B might move more toward SS because now if you bunt, you risk it going foul and putting yourself in a 2-strike hole. Obviously, after there are 2 strikes they worry even less about it. When Calhoun bunted against the Twins the other day, it was because the 3B was shifted with no strikes. All of Calhoun’s bunt hits have come with no strikes. La Stella had a bunt hit with one strike, but obviously he’s a way better 2-strike hitter than Calhoun so he wasn’t as worried about it going foul. 

As for hitting the other way, that’s very tough. The reason most guys face shifts is because most guys can’t do it. It’s not just hitting the ball the other way, but hitting it on the ground the other way, which goes counter to two things you’re normally trying to do. Most balls hit the other way are not hit hard, and if those are in the air they are still outs. 

If you don’t like shifts, you need to fill your roster with David Fletchers instead of Kole Calhouns, rather than trying to make Kole Calhoun hit like David Fletcher. 

Of course, Calhoun has a higher OPS than Fletcher right now (797 to 787) because Calhoun hits for more power, which is because he tries to drive the ball instead of just poking it anywhere. 

 

For me, it boils down to hitting the ball where its pitched.

If you get a pitch on the inner half...hit it hard...it you get a pitch on the outside half of the plate...drive it the other way.  To many players take that outside pitch, and roll it over for an easy ground ball out.  

As much as we all wanted him gone, the one thing Hatcher preached was driving the ball to the biggest part of the field...that is a lost art form.  

[floplag]

18 minutes ago, Mark PT said:

thanks for the explanation. Personally, I think this approach sucks. This, in my view, leaves too many runners on base. 

the idea of streak hitting though, is also right out.  Its basically playing for the multi run home run.   It will leave a ton of guys on base, thats kind of the point really.  the more you put on, the more you leave

[Mark PT]

1 hour ago, HaloNArizona said:

For me, it boils down to hitting the ball where its pitched.

If you get a pitch on the inner half...hit it hard...it you get a pitch on the outside half of the plate...drive it the other way.  To many players take that outside pitch, and roll it over for an easy ground ball out.  

As much as we all wanted him gone, the one thing Hatcher preached was driving the ball to the biggest part of the field...that is a lost art form.  

Your right. It takes discipline by the batter to leave pitches alone if they coax you into hitting toward the shift. This is out the window with two strikes however. But this is the chess match between the pitcher and the batter that makes every game great, in my opinion. The game gets boring watching every hitter try to maximize their launch angles when they are better served with putting the ball in play. Player now do not allow the manager to activate the run game because the hit to miss ratio is so far out of wack that its risky. I think that this is what our 2002 team did so well. 

[yk9001]

It can work

https://deadspin.com/matt-carpenter-beats-a-marlins-shift-with-a-standup-bun-1835599167

[yk9001]

Matt Carpenter must have some extraordinary skills to bunt to the left side like that.

[Stradling]

Yk has missed the part of the discussion where most shifts still leave the third baseman over there, unlike this at bat.  

[yk9001]

So this was  one and only time in 2019 there were no infielders on the left side?

[Stradling]

41 minutes ago, yk9001 said:

So this was  one and only time in 2019 there were no infielders on the left side?

No, but it certainly doesn’t mean that the person batting should bunt every single time there were no infielders on the left side.