MLB players frustrated with owners. Possible collusion?

[m0nkey]

I don’t understand the anger and hatred towards boras. He’s doing his job, which is to try to get the best deal possible for his clients. At the end of the day, it’s up to the players on whether or not they want to accept whatever deals are on the table

[Slegnaac]

51 minutes ago, ANAHEIMBOB said:

Prices for tickets are going up almost every year. I was paying $26,000 dollars for four seats. I gave them up for another reason. I used to attend 70 games a year. I watch the games on TV.  If the players are dumb enough to strike, I don't think the fan's will come back after a strike.

 

The fans will be back. You can book it.

[krAbs]

Whats awkward is that players as a whole are kinda right to get annoyed - they don't get paid in their prime years, and now they ALSO won't get paid in their sunset years. Its just that this is focused around the players not getting paid in their sunset years, which is like...a stupid time to pay players anyways. It really seems like the issue here is that Mike Trout was criminally underpaid in 2012-2015- where he was paid about $205k per WAR produced- but the focus is on Hosmer trying to get like, a 7 year/$200 million contract for what may or may not even be a positive WAR.

[Ohtaniland]

8 minutes ago, m0nkey said:

I don’t understand the anger and hatred towards boras. He’s doing his job, which is to try to get the best deal possible for his clients. At the end of the day, it’s up to the players on whether or not they want to accept whatever deals are on the table

He’s kinda like a realtor. 

 

[Troll Daddy]

GM’s talk to one another everyday ... is that a form collusion ?  Maybe they should discontinue the Winter meetings. 

[IheartLA]

31 minutes ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

Maybe if every single FA signed to a big contract the past 10 years didn't completely fall off a cliff their first season forward (less effort after cashing in) teams would still be willing to hand out hundreds of millions of guaranteed money to individual players. It is great that owners are evidently starting to understand how that game works.

It's not just the old players. Heyward was 26 when he signed his massive deal and he has been terrible so far. His response has been that he isn't thinking about it and he has "earned" his money. Similar to Pujols. http://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/cubs/jason-heyward-predicts-he-will-be-mvp-2018-cubs

Looking at Heyward's page it's obvious he wasn't compensated fairly for his 5-7 WAR seasons he was putting up in arbitration years. As for big mega deals Posey, Kershaw, Arod's 1st deal, Votto, Scherzer, Freeman have all worked out ok. Even Cano was been pretty good value so far. 

Murphy/Donaldson will be entering their age 34 seasons when they hit FA. Dozier will be 32. They're probably looking at 3-4 year deals MAX. And these are basically the best players in the game.

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

There are ways around that with revenue sharing and the luxury tax. If they were to incorporate a form of restricted free agency you could force buyers to financially compensate teams losing players as well.

put them on loan?

[Ohtaniland]

27 minutes ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

Maybe if every single FA signed to a big contract the past 10 years didn't completely fall off a cliff their first season forward (less effort after cashing in) teams would still be willing to hand out hundreds of millions of guaranteed money to individual players. It is great that owners are evidently starting to understand how that game works.

Yeah exactly. I’ve always been an incentive type person. Every player should start with a $3M base salary and work for the rest. 200k per home run, 10k per rbi, 10k per SB, 10k per 2B, 15k per 3B, $1k per PA, pitching incentives would also apply for inn’s, k’s, shoutouts, no hitters, 1 hitters, complete games etc...

Having to earn their money would be out of question right? 

[eaterfan]

1 hour ago, JarsOfClay said:

Because championships are made by avoiding Pujols contracts and making Simmons contracts.  That's why.

Why don't we talk about the contract Simmons agreed to?  Maybe because he agreed to it and no one held a gun to his head?

As for rookies, some outplay their value but most don't.  In the end, it evens out.  And it's not screwing the rookies when the players agreed to this system.

 

Championships aren't made or not made like that. Championships are made by collecting the most talent and by getting a little lucky. A team is going to win the WS every year whether they spend $60 million or $230 million. The only difference is how much the owners put in their pocket.

Sure, no one held a gun to his head, but he his market rights were restricted to the point where he had very little leverage to work a fair deal. How about you answer for Vlad Jr. or Kris Bryant? I noticed you skipped them.

In the end it doesn't even out. The owners make huge surplus revenue off of them. 

[eligrba]

Baseball is a business.  Owners should make gobs of money because it is their money at risk.  Holding down employee costs is the way of the world in a free market economy. 

 

[eaterfan]

4 minutes ago, eligrba said:

Baseball is a business.  Owners should make gobs of money because it is their money at risk.  Holding down employee costs is the way of the world in a free market economy. 

 

But it's not a free market economy. They have an anti trust exemption. They make gobs of money because of that. Let's not pretend these owners are some sort of baseball business geniuses. You and I could make money owning an MLB team. 

[jordan]

Pujols, Hamilton, Pablo, Heyward, Shields...all got paid recently, and have been far from living up to those contracts.  Pujols, we know how that has gone.  Pablo and Hamilton, released.  Shields traded.  Heyward, way underperforming on offense.  Can the players return the money?  No, they won’t. Owners are smarter now.  It doesn’t take collusion to figure out the bloated contracts don’t pay off.  

[VariousCrap]

3 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

It has more to do with the fact that owners are raking in record amounts of money while only <~1% of players are able to negotiate their share freely. 

 

I'm sorry, but that is a crock of shit.

[jordan]

Also, this offseason has been unique in many ways.  Let’s not jump the gun and think it’ll be stuck like this forever.  Ohtani courting, Miami fire sale, big market teams trying to hold off on the luxury tax penalty, HUGE 2019 free agent market, the new age stats that can help find younger cheaper players for nearly equivalent value...all these have created the perfect storm.  I don’t see this happening again for a long time.  

[VariousCrap]

3 hours ago, eaterfan said:

But they aren't paying players what they deserve... How much does Andrelton Simmons deserve? How much does Krys Bryant deserve? How much does Shohei Ohtani deserve? How much does Vlad Jr. deserve?

Why do we talk about Pujols being overpaid but talk about what a great deal the Simmons contact is? Why don't we talk about how underpaid he is? Why do we talk about Hamilton eating up our payroll instead of talking about how screwing rookies allows owners to make billions.

 

They get what they deserve when they sign their contract or extension.  

[eligrba]

10 minutes ago, eaterfan said:

But it's not a free market economy. They have an anti trust exemption. They make gobs of money because of that. Let's not pretend these owners are some sort of baseball business geniuses. You and I could make money owning an MLB team. 

Thanks for the kind thoughts but if I was an owner I would immediately trade away all players of any value taking full advantage of revenue sharing allowing me to blow my money on booze and women rather than the baseball team.

I guess even with that management approach I would make money.......you have made an excellent point.

[eaterfan]

4 minutes ago, VariousCrap said:

 

They get what they deserve when they sign their contract or extension.  

"We won't pay you what you deserve until you enter your decline." leads to "We're not going to pay you for your decline." 

[eaterfan]

1 minute ago, eligrba said:

Thanks for the kind thoughts but if I was an owner I would immediately trade away all players of any value taking full advantage of revenue sharing allowing me to blow my money on booze and women rather than the baseball team.

I guess even with that management approach I would make money.......you have made an excellent point.

Worked great for Loria and McCourt. Don't forget to get your tax payer funded stadium too!

[AngelsLakersFan]

2 hours ago, IheartLA said:

That's a terrible idea. Why shouldn't arbitration just pay FMV year to year. To get to arbitration meant you played 2.5+ years on $500k. If there was an arbitration hearing for a  5 WAR CF then he should be paid like a 5WAR CF, 3 WAR 2B should be paid like a 3 WAR 2B. That would give 3-4 years of team control at FMV for both player/team. Then he'd hit FA at 29-32 and sign a 3-5 year deal and not feel the need to make up for 6+ years of underpayment when his skills are declining.

if you did that you'd disincentivise player development, dramatically increase player turnover and make it impossible to compete outside of the top levels of payroll.

You could try and make it work but I think it's too big of a step right now.

[JarsOfClay]

40 minutes ago, eaterfan said:

Championships aren't made or not made like that. Championships are made by collecting the most talent and by getting a little lucky. A team is going to win the WS every year whether they spend $60 million or $230 million. The only difference is how much the owners put in their pocket.

Sure, no one held a gun to his head, but he his market rights were restricted to the point where he had very little leverage to work a fair deal. How about you answer for Vlad Jr. or Kris Bryant? I noticed you skipped them.

In the end it doesn't even out. The owners make huge surplus revenue off of them. 

Simmons signed his extension for security.  I'm sure he knows he could have gotten more as a FA, but he decided not to take that chance.  That's his choice not the fault of the owners.  It wasn't about marketing rights.

And what about Vlad Jr? He hasn't played a single game yet.  As for Bryant, yes he is making less than his value right now, but there will come a time when he gets paid a lot and he doesn't earn it like Pujols, Hamilton, etc.   

 

[AngelsLakersFan]

32 minutes ago, VariousCrap said:

 

I'm sorry, but that is a crock of shit.

What part?

 

[stormngt]

7 hours ago, eaterfan said:

Yes, but they are competing with indentured servants. 

I don't know what you do, but imagine your work got to draft employees out of college and pay them minimum wage for the first 20 years of their career. And every company in your industry was in the same boat. What would it do to your salary after you hit FA in 20 years? 

How many employees in other markets invest in their development like minor league Baseball?

[IheartLA]

47 minutes ago, eligrba said:

Baseball is a business.  Owners should make gobs of money because it is their money at risk.  Holding down employee costs is the way of the world in a free market economy. 

 

So you'd be ok with tech companies from Silicon Valley bringing in 2 billion Indians/Chinese b/c they're cheaper? Or 500M Latin Americans to replace the more expensive/spoiled Americans?

 

[AngelsLakersFan]

25 minutes ago, eligrba said:

Thanks for the kind thoughts but if I was an owner I would immediately trade away all players of any value taking full advantage of revenue sharing allowing me to blow my money on booze and women rather than the baseball team.

I guess even with that management approach I would make money.......you have made an excellent point.

You very well might be one of the most profitable teams in the league.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

7 hours ago, eaterfan said:

Yes, but they are competing with indentured servants. 

I don't know what you do, but imagine your work got to draft employees out of college and pay them minimum wage for the first 20 years of their career. And every company in your industry was in the same boat. What would it do to your salary after you hit FA in 20 years? 

It had and I re-invented myself due to looking like AP#5 at the ripe old age of 40 in sales......