Trout/Stanton/Arte

[Lou]

I'd like to go on record as saying a player the caliber of Giancarlo Stanton is never merely a luxury. 

[Ohtaniland]

7 hours ago, Lou said:

The Marlins were never going to pay him the $325M.

That decision is 100% on Stanton. The Marlins contractually committed $325M to Stanton with a no trade clause included so if Stanton decided to stay the entire length of the contract they would be obligated to pay him every dime. And when you say “They” you must be referring to the prior ownership group.

[Dtwncbad]

[AngelsLakersFan]

16 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Totally agree.

Im probably repeating what ive said in other posts here. But looking at the last decade or so, we signed vlad, torii, pujols and hamilton. Obviously 2 great, one good to bad, one horrible. Its easy to look at the most recent two and shy away from any other big contract.

But in doing so, it ignores what to me were the two biggest FA mistakes in the last 10 or so years. Balking at beltran, and balking at beltre, both for the price tag. 

Beltran wanted and got 105 for 6 years or so (of the top of my head). We said fuck off (even though the team coveted him since KC), when he was a perfect fit. Could slot second in front of vlad and GA, was a sosh type (conact hitter and baserunner). Anyway, we said no...then gave finley 14 mill over 2 years. Then gmj 50 mill over 5. Then torii 90 over 5. Torii was great...but the "vlad window" passed (and we were honestly one bat away from likely another WS appearence in the lackey/vlad/franky era). So we paid roughly 150 million for the same position (CF) spread around 3 guys, in the same time frame (06-13).

Beltre same thing. We said no, went baragain hunting, and stupidly paid wells roughly 15 or so less than beltre wanted.

The mistake in both moves is simple. And its the same now. Both beltre and beltran, and now stanton (but to a lesser extent to be fair) represented something we really needed, AND HAD NO REALISTIC ALTERNATIVE IN OUR SYSTEM. So you have to look at FA....all 3 of those guys were/are hot commodities. Its not going to get any cheaper going forward.  

Like you said, stanton is expensive as hell, but weve seen the results of mediocrity. At least when we balked at beltran, the team top to bottom was solid, and we had very interesting prospects. With beltre, the team was still better balanced than now, with some interesting prospects (trumbo, bourjos, etc). Now, and for the near and maybe 3 year timeframe, we have trout, upton (who i think slows by 2020 to good, not star), and probably too much faith in simmons (who im not knocking, i love the guy) and calhoun. The rest is ugly.

We can maybe tidy it up with a decent 2B and 3B. But the last several years, when weve penny pinched, the results have been pretty terrible. Were theowing around names like kinsler and morrison...that just screams matt joyce to me. Moustakas might be a nice suprise. But he may also be david freese..and thats not gonna be enough either, i think.

Oh my god I was shitting bricks all over the old official board back when the Beltran stuff was going down. I was running around pulling all the fire alarms screaming 'WTF ARE YOU GUYS DOING!!!!!!?' I always thought that was the one move that we needed to push the team over the top, and instead we opted for Finley who dragged us under.

[AngelsLakersFan]

15 hours ago, Warfarin said:

You make some good points in here, but I'd consider Stanton as perhaps more of a "luxury" for us as opposed to a true necessity.  Now, if we were the Giants, and had not one decent outfielder, I'd totally agree with you and say that he is a true, genuine need.  However, we have the best player in the game in CF, one of the best offensive LFers, and a very steady and underrated RFer.   Beyond those three, we have a lot of minor league OF talent as well.  OF is probably the one area that we are totally set, which is why I think of Stanton as more of a luxury than a necessity.

On this current team, I'd say 2B and 3B are moreso areas of true necessity.  We have absolutely no plan for 2B and no legitimate talent in the pipeline.  We have Valbuena/Marte to occupy 3B for this year, but they don't exactly inspire confidence, and we have no real minor league talent being developed there either.  Cowart has a great glove, but he screams utility infielder at best currently.

I agree with this, but it's also not far off from all the people suggesting we target certain first basemen to upgrade over Cron. Stanton would be a bigger upgrade over Calhoun than anyone we could possibly sign for first base will be over Cron.

Bottom line, is that I think teams are smart to pay for real, top shelf talent when it is available, because it rarely is. Everyone else on the market this offseason is a commodity, a generic widget that teams bid on and pass around like puzzle pieces. We have no shortage of marginal talent available , or marginal prospects to trade for them. We will end up with a decent, second-hand third basemen and second basemen, the only question is whether or not it will come in 'good' condition, 'acceptable' or 'as-is' and whether or not we have to pay for shipping. 

I hope Eppler is holding out for 'used - like new.'

[ten ocho recon scout]

13 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Oh my god I was shitting bricks all over the old official board back when the Beltran stuff was going down. I was running around pulling all the fire alarms screaming 'WTF ARE YOU GUYS DOING!!!!!!?' I always thought that was the one move that we needed to push the team over the top, and instead we opted for Finley who dragged us under.

Never understood it. We wanted bim when he was with KC. He supposedly wanted to come here (?). 

Switch hitter, played CF (with vlad and GA....man..), could hit for power (we needed), steal bases (ehich used to be our thing), etc etc. 

Totally agree...not often are teams truly one guy away. But im very confidant with our mid 2000s core, (really good SP, insane bullpen), if Vlad had another bst in the lineup, we would have have gotten to the next step.

Someone will point out vlad and tex, but that was 2 months. Beltran eould have been here for all of vlads peak, moved over to replace GA when he left, and may have actually saved us money, ironic as that is.

[ten ocho recon scout]

9 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I agree with this, but it's also not far off from all the people suggesting we target certain first basemen to upgrade over Cron. Stanton would be a bigger upgrade over Calhoun than anyone we could possibly sign for first base will be over Cron.

Bottom line, is that I think teams are smart to pay for real, top shelf talent when it is available, because it rarely is. Everyone else on the market this offseason is a commodity, a generic widget that teams bid on and pass around like puzzle pieces. We have no shortage of marginal talent available , or marginal prospects to trade for them. We will end up with a decent, second-hand third basemen and second basemen, the only question is whether or not it will come in 'good' condition, 'acceptable' or 'as-is' and whether or not we have to pay for shipping. 

I hope Eppler is holding out for 'used - like new.'

Agree fully. Weve tried being frugal and hope for the best, and time and time again, we pretty much suck at it. Weve done decent on some pitching for sure, but the last few years trying to replace figgins at 3B, GA (and rivera) in LF, and 2B since howie have all been disasters mostly.

Bonafide all stars dont come around often. Usually its a stanton situation where hes a pending FA and the other guy wants too much in return. Or a FA that wants stanton money. This time, its money we can afford (being that we will have to pay similar money to sign anyone like him in the future anyway), and the pool of suitors is low because he wants to come to california....

[Angel Oracle]

When thinking about it, It’s just the next 4 seasons where team salary would take off with Trout, Pujols, Upton, and Stanton.   It could be tweaked, if Pujols retired after 2019 and had his 2020-2021 salary Bonilla’d over say 10 years which would open up about $17 million AAV payroll for 2020-2021.  Then Arte possibly only has to pay the luxury tax in 2018 and 2019?

Next question, if taking on entire salary, who would need to be traded to the Fish.   Obviously, Calhoun could be included since he isn’t making too much for the Fish to take on.   What prospects are the Fish most desiring?   OFers?   INFers?  Pitchers?

Not saying Stanton has to be acquired, just thinking it through.

Stanton is still young enough to be almost a sure thing for the next 7-8 seasons.

Do you go with that, or take a chance that Adell and Marsh become at least borderline ASG caliber players?

 

[ettin]

1 hour ago, Angel Oracle said:

When thinking about it, It’s just the next 4 seasons where team salary would take off with Trout, Pujols, Upton, and Stanton.   It could be tweaked, if Pujols retired after 2019 and had his 2020-2021 salary Bonilla’d over say 10 years which would open up about $17 million AAV payroll for 2020-2021.  Then Arte possibly only has to pay the luxury tax in 2018 and 2019?

Next question, if taking on entire salary, who would need to be traded to the Fish.   Obviously, Calhoun could be included since he isn’t making too much for the Fish to take on.   What prospects are the Fish most desiring?   OFers?   INFers?  Pitchers?

Not saying Stanton has to be acquired, just thinking it through.

Stanton is still young enough to be almost a sure thing for the next 7-8 seasons.

Do you go with that, or take a chance that Adell and Marsh become at least borderline ASG caliber players?

 

When you consider that all three of their outfielders are coveted in trade, they would almost certainly want one or more outfield prospects in return and guess what? The Angels have a crap ton of outfield prospects right now which is another small edge we have in a potential Stanton trade.

I suspect also that they will want infielders as well when you consider they want to trade Gordon and Prado. This is why I think Kaleb Cowart could go in a potential Stanton trade because he can play 3B or 2B for the Fish and they can sell his former #1 draft pick status to their fan base. It also gives Cowart a pressure-free environment to develop in and see if he can reach his potential.

We really do line up well with Miami right now you have to think we have a very small but not unreasonable chance at Giancarlo if that is what Eppler and Moreno want. However it will take a commitment by Arte to raise payroll in 2019 and 2020 and possibly exceed the Luxury Tax threshold in those two years (and not by too much by the way it would be a tolerable tax for Moreno to pay).

For me this is a no-brainer. Stanton is a clear, fully developed difference maker on any team he plays, right now. We can dream on Adell and Marsh all we want but there is nothing guaranteeing they will even make the Majors much less be stars. They could flame out or be superstars and more likely be somewhere in between.

To me we need to go all-in and Stanton (or Chris Archer) is one way to do that this year and make the Angels a force to be reckoned with in 2018 and beyond. If we do it we will be sacrificing one of our top outfield prospects, probably Jones. My gut instinct says Marsh is the one we hold onto most dearly for the long-term.

[CanadianHalo]

I feel like Trout’s 100% gone in 3 years so unless the plan is to go after Harper or Machado next off season (and it’s not a guarantee you get one even if you want one) I’m slowly warming up to the idea of Stanton. 

I do wonder if Arte or Eppler has asked Albert what his plan is. If Albert says he fully intends to play out his contract (which I believe he will) this makes things more complicated. However, if Albert has told them he only plans to play for maybe 2 more seasons I think this is something you seriously consider.

Until Stanton tweaked his stance at the plate that contract was looking like a disaster. Eppler doesn’t strike me as the gambling type and taking on Stanton’s deal presents a huge risk. 

[Stradling]

I have no idea how someone can conclude that Trout is 100% gone.  

[CanadianHalo]

10 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I have no idea how someone can conclude that Trout is 100% gone.  

[Stradling]

3 minutes ago, CanadianHalo said:

I guess I’ll have to since it’s 100% going to happen.  I wonder if Trout or Eppler know this.  

[ettin]

26 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I have no idea how someone can conclude that Trout is 100% gone.  

 

42 minutes ago, CanadianHalo said:

I feel like Trout’s 100% gone in 3 years so unless the plan is to go after Harper or Machado next off season (and it’s not a guarantee you get one even if you want one) I’m slowly warming up to the idea of Stanton. 

I do wonder if Arte or Eppler has asked Albert what his plan is. If Albert says he fully intends to play out his contract (which I believe he will) this makes things more complicated. However, if Albert has told them he only plans to play for maybe 2 more seasons I think this is something you seriously consider.

Until Stanton tweaked his stance at the plate that contract was looking like a disaster. Eppler doesn’t strike me as the gambling type and taking on Stanton’s deal presents a huge risk. 

I think mostly the opposite I think he is already planning to stay.

[JarsOfClay]

33 minutes ago, ettin said:

I think mostly the opposite I think he is already planning to stay.

What gave you that impression?

[Ohtaniland]

23 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I have no idea how someone can conclude that Trout is 100% gone.  

If Trout decides to leave I don’t believe it will be a reflection on what the Angels are doing or not doing. It will simply be a personal decision that he and his family may make to be closer to home.

I don’t believe money will be an issue. I don’t believe it will be about the standings. The Angels will have no problem matching any offer but a lifetime decision like that will have plenty of family influence. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 hour ago, JarsOfClay said:

What gave you that impression?

Hes a big taco bell guy. I dont think its as common on the east coast.

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 hour ago, Calzone said:

If Trout decides to leave I don’t believe it will be a reflection on what the Angels are doing or not doing. It will simply be a personal decision that he and his family may make to be closer to home.

I don’t believe money will be an issue. I don’t believe it will be about the standings. The Angels will have no problem matching any offer but a lifetime decision like that will have plenty of family influence. 

Agreed. And to be fair, if he went home, hed peehaps prefer it because the odd once every two month day off at home.

Then again, he and his fiance love newport. Which makes sense based on where he grew up (the weather and location are exotic compared to joisy. So that could play a factor.

[ettin]

2 hours ago, JarsOfClay said:

What gave you that impression?

The fact that he has said twice now that he likes playing here in Anaheim? Here is a link: http://www.ocregister.com/2017/10/01/mike-trout-says-hes-happy-with-angels-direction-but-questions-will-return-this-winter/

He likes his teammates, they like him and he thinks the team is heading in a positive direction.

[Ohtaniland]

18 minutes ago, ettin said:

The fact that he has said twice now that he likes playing here in Anaheim? Here is a link: http://www.ocregister.com/2017/10/01/mike-trout-says-hes-happy-with-angels-direction-but-questions-will-return-this-winter/

He likes his teammates, they like him and he thinks the team is heading in a positive direction.

Well to be fair Mike Trout also likes Miami. He had a recent bachelor party there. He also loves Philadelphia. And Trout likes people in general. Not sure how he feels about Oakland.

[ten ocho recon scout]

2 hours ago, calscuf said:

Sigh, ok Senor Sensitivo, how about if he changed his name to Nelson Trout I, and started wearing a monocle and anyways sneered and said shit like "oh yes, indeed" and "indubitably" and "quite right old chap"?

And ending statements in question form for whatever reason. A lot of "isnt it?"'s thrown in.

[Angel Oracle]

8 hours ago, calscuf said:

Sigh, ok Senor Sensitivo, how about if he changed his name to Nelson Trout I, and started wearing a monocle and anyways sneered and said shit like "oh yes, indeed" and "indubitably" and "quite right old chap"?

He would become a WWE heel?

[Dtwncbad]

Latest on Stanton:

Put these things together and. . .

1). He gave list of acceptable places to go to the Marlins and Los Angeles (Dodgers) is on the list.

2). Reports are Dodgers not interested in adding that kind of payroll this year.

3). Aside from the Cardinals and Giants, there are three additional teams lurking and interested.

4). Arte and Angels have a history of working covertly 

4). If Dodgers are a no, makes sense he might want to still be in Los Angeles?

[WeatherWonk]

If I was that wealthy and could choose whatever West Coast team I wanted, I think I would choose the Giants. Great city, great fans, you could live in a big house in Marin and have a flat in The City,  when the Giants are home. Sierras are close enough for a mountain cabin at Tahoe. 

Or maybe the main mansion in the hills east of Oakland towards Mt. Diablo. The cool of Marin and The City could be a shock to the system after Miami. 

[Adam]

He's a very expensive Mark Trumbo