Time to fly the flag...

[Stradling]

Just now, Farmbuildingfan said:

I am mad at the front office, since it was their lack of wisdom that got the Angels in this mess with few options for immediate improvement.

Maybe if they would have emphasized scouting and not emphasized free agent acquisitions such as Pujols ,Hamilton, and Wilson instead of draft picks. and not hired Dipoto and Reagins. the Angels would have a better way out of this.

Why not emphasize both?  Like the Yankees, Cubs, Red Sox and Dodgers.  

[floplag]

Just now, Stradling said:

Here's a better question @floplag.  Who moved at the trade deadline that would have helped past this season that is better than this off seasons free agent class?  

Well sure lets quantify the discussion to that narrow field and ignore all other possibilities?  
How about instead we look at who was out there, like Gordon, that didnt move instead of just those that support your view. 
but i guess this seasons already over so were already looking at next... its all good. 

[nate]

The white flag was raised before the season even started.  If Eppler can make some really good and frugal FA signings this off season maybe they have a chance next season, but the lack of organizational depth at every single position will continue to doom them.  Years of one stupid move emptying the farm after another and poor drafts are taking their toll.

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, floplag said:

Well sure lets quantify the discussion to that narrow field and ignore all other possibilities?  
How about instead we look at who was out there, like Gordon, that didnt move instead of just those that support your view. 
but i guess this seasons already over so were already looking at next... its all good. 

If they didn't move we're they really available?  Your point of view is the easy one because it makes everything possible.  Pretending Gordon is $12 million a season better than Cowart doesn't solve any problems.  And I like Gordon. 

[Farmbuildingfan]

6 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Why not emphasize both?  Like the Yankees, Cubs, Red Sox and Dodgers.  

I guess that is another sign of the Angels lack of wisdom.

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, nate said:

The white flag was raised before the season even started.  If Eppler can make some really good and frugal FA signings this off season maybe they have a chance next season, but the lack of organizational depth at every single position will continue to doom them.  Years of one stupid move emptying the farm after another and poor drafts are taking their toll.

The emptying the farm trades is severely overstated around here.  Basically Segura is the only player of value we have traded in five years.  Grichuck isn't really an everyday player.  None of the guys we sent for Street have amounted to anything.  You yourself says what's the point of having depth if that depth is bad.  

[Blarg]

8 minutes ago, Farmbuildingfan said:

I am mad at the front office, since it was their lack of wisdom that got the Angels in this mess with few options for immediate improvement.

Maybe if they would have emphasized scouting and not emphasized free agent acquisitions such as Pujols ,Hamilton, and Wilson instead of draft picks. and not hired Dipoto and Reagins. the Angels would have a better way out of this.

If only the hadn't let Nolan Ryan walk!

Time to move forward, Dipoto has now been gone for three years. 

[floplag]

Just now, Stradling said:

If they didn't move we're they really available?  Your point of view is the easy one because it makes everything possible.  Pretending Gordon is $12 million a season better than Cowart doesn't solve any problems.  And I like Gordon. 

It was known that they were out there and said publicly and being shopped, not something i made up.
Comparing anyone to a guy on a roll making league minimum is a bit unfair but it is what it is i guess.
No matter, its over, the front office knows it, thats obvious, i guess its time for me to embrace the horror.  
I said in the past we were 3-5 years out and i let some hope sneak in, time to kick it out and go back to reality

[Stradling]

Gordon is a faster version of Revere that plays a premium position.  Is that worth $12 million and not knowing whether Cowart is ready going into next year?  

[floplag]

2 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Gordon is a faster version of Revere that plays a premium position.  Is that worth $12 million and not knowing whether Cowart is ready going into next year?  

Dont we need both a 2b and a 3b?   is there better out there in the FA market?  i dont see it.  Do we have better on the farm?   Are we planning to compete in the next 3 years?  
I guess the last question is the key, if the answer is yes then yes its worth it, if not then no., 

[Farmbuildingfan]

10 minutes ago, Blarg said:

If only the hadn't let Nolan Ryan walk!

Time to move forward, Dipoto has now been gone for three years. 

Yes we do need to move forward, but this recent lack of wisdom from the past is affecting the immediate future.

This has been going on for most of the last 50 years and it has long ago gotten old.

If one were to take the time to review the Angels rosters over the decades, very few of the best came from within their organization.

 Until Trout, not a single Angels farm player while playing for the Angels has even been on the periphery of HOF consideration.

OK it has been 50 years, now lets start drafting some players who will make great contributions FOR THE ANGELS.

I don't have another 50 years to wait.

[Stradling]

Just now, floplag said:

Dont we need both a 2b and a 3b?   is there better out there in the FA market?  i dont see it.  Do we have better on the farm?   Are we planning to compete in the next 3 years?  
I guess the last question is the key, if the answer is yes then yes its worth it, if not then no., 

Well if Cowart is able to hit major league pitching it gives the Angels options.  They could sign Moustakas or trade for the best 2nd baseman available.  One thing is undeniable, more teams will trade players of value in the offseason than midseason.  They could sign Neil Walker and put Cowart at third.  There are a lot of different options.  They could sign Hosmer, Moustakas and resign Maybin.  Without Maybin and Escobar they have no leadoff hitters.  And no Dee Gordon doesn't get on base enough for that role.  

[bloodbrother]

Angels FO/ownership botched signings/draft picks for a few seasons and are now suffering the consequences of those actions. There is a new regime here but you can't just expect a complete 180 immediately. 2016 and 2017 always looked like it would be "treading water" years for this org. Just trying to start rebuilding the depth/upside in the farm and for Arte, just waiting for those big money commitments to FA busts to come off the books. 2018 should be the first season for fans to have any real playoff hopes, though even then I wouldn't say it should be something to expect. I do see them being more aggressive in FA this offseason compared to the prior 2 years where it was shopping at the thrift store

 

 

[Blarg]

10 minutes ago, Farmbuildingfan said:

Yes we do need to move forward, but this recent lack of wisdom from the past is affecting the immediate future.

This has been going on for most of the last 50 years and it has long ago gotten old.

If one were to take the time to review the Angels rosters over the decades, very few of the best came from within their organization.

 Until Trout, not a single Angels farm player while playing for the Angels has even been on the periphery of HOF consideration.

OK it has been 50 years, now lets start drafting some players who will make great contributions FOR THE ANGELS.

I don't have another 50 years to wait.

It hasn't been going on for 50 years and your making up arguments that are not relevant to what is happening now. 

[floplag]

8 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Well if Cowart is able to hit major league pitching it gives the Angels options.  They could sign Moustakas or trade for the best 2nd baseman available.  One thing is undeniable, more teams will trade players of value in the offseason than midseason.  They could sign Neil Walker and put Cowart at third.  There are a lot of different options.  They could sign Hosmer, Moustakas and resign Maybin.  Without Maybin and Escobar they have no leadoff hitters.  And no Dee Gordon doesn't get on base enough for that role.  

They could do a lot of things, they could have done a lot of things in the last couple off seasons as well but they didnt and went clean peanut hunting leaving us where we are.  

And no i dont buy the "they didnt have the money" argument in the last couple years, money is not or should not be an issue. 

Its interesting to me that you would pay 20 mil for Moustakis or Walker but think 12 for Gordon is too much?  

You clearly have more faith in them than i do, though what thats based on ive no idea. 

Regardless the off season isnt the point yet, well have plenty of time to argue that when the time comes... the point is now, the rest of this season, and im officially back on board with the negative Nancies and have no further expectations and if we finish at better than 500 i guess thats who we are. 

[bloodbrother]

3 minutes ago, floplag said:

They could do a lot of things, they could have done a lot of things in the last couple off seasons as well but they didnt and went clean peanut hunting leaving us where we are.  

And no i dont buy the "they didnt have the money" argument in the last couple years, money is not or should not be an issue. 

Its interesting to me that you would pay 20 mil for Moustakis or Walker but think 12 for Gordon is too much?  

You clearly have more faith in them than i do, though what thats based on ive no idea. 

Regardless the off season isnt the point yet, well have plenty of time to argue that when the time comes... the point is now, the rest of this season, and im officially back on board with the negative Nancies and have no further expectations and if we finish at better than 500 i guess thats who we are. 

Unfortunately, the past few seasons have showed to us that it indeed is an issue for Arte. We wondered what the limit was for spending and Arte made that clear with being unwilling to go over the luxury threshold. Not much a GM can do other than clean peanut hunting when his owner doesn't want to spend

[Farmbuildingfan]

1 minute ago, Blarg said:

It hasn't been going on for 50 years and your making up arguments that are not relevant to what is happening now. 

I am not saying the distant past is now relevant, I am using it to emphasize my frustration.

The recent past is very relevant, which is why the team has limited options for immediate improvement.

If you disagree with me about the last 50 years, just go back and see how many Angel farm products, while playing for the Angels have been named to the all star games, especially the ones selected by the fans.

The  large majority of the best  Angel farm hands spent their prime years with other organizations.

 

I'd say it is about time  we draft more of them and they remain Angels.

 

[Stradling]

Just now, floplag said:

They could do a lot of things, they could have done a lot of things in the last couple off seasons as well but they didnt and went clean peanut hunting leaving us where we are.  

And no i dont buy the "they didnt have the money" argument in the last couple years, money is not or should not be an issue. 

Its interesting to me that you would pay 20 mil for Moustakis or Walker but think 12 for Gordon is too much?  

You clearly have more faith in them than i do, though what thats based on ive no idea. 

Regardless the off season isnt the point yet, well have plenty of time to argue that when the time comes... the point is now, the rest of this season, and im officially back on board with the negative Nancies and have no further expectations and if we finish at better than 500 i guess thats who we are. 

Clearly I missed the part where I gave my opinion on who they should sign.  Neil Walker will not get $20 million a season.  I will bet basically any amount of money on that.  The reason he got what he got was he signed the qualifying option which was smart of him.  Moustakas will be an Angel I think.  I don't think he will get $20 million either.  

[Blarg]

4 minutes ago, Farmbuildingfan said:

I am not saying the distant past is now relevant, I am using it to emphasize my frustration.

The recent past is very relevant, which is why the team has limited options for immediate improvement.

If you disagree with me about the last 50 years, just go back and see how many Angel farm products, while playing for the Angels have been named to the all star games, especially the ones selected by the fans.

The  large majority of the best  Angel farm hands spent their prime years with other organizations.

 

I'd say it is about time  we draft more of them and they remain Angels.

 

Hah, fan voting is probably the silliest measure of a players worth. Jeter was voted on the All Star squad when he was out with knee surgery. Nearly the entire Royals lineup was voted in by ballot box stuffing and internet bots three years ago.

You need better arguments. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Blarg

[bloodbrother]

Angels giving big money to Moustakas immediately after finally being freed of the Hamilton debacle would be them repeating their past mistakes.

[floplag]

8 minutes ago, bloodbrother said:

Unfortunately, the past few seasons have showed to us that it indeed is an issue for Arte. We wondered what the limit was for spending and Arte made that clear with being unwilling to go over the luxury threshold. Not much a GM can do other than clean peanut hunting when his owner doesn't want to spend

impossible, TV deal alone pays almost entire payroll, no way no how this team has no money.  
Its making a choice, not doing it out of necessity 

[Angel Oracle]

52 minutes ago, floplag said:

and 2-3 games out but lets not count that 

With some 6 teams ahead of them in the 2nd WC spot race; that is a lot of help that is needed to get to that spot, with a bad offense that has exactly TWO threats in the lineup and an overworked bullpen and soft on innings rotation 

Not exactly a recipe for success

[Angel Oracle]

5 minutes ago, bloodbrother said:

Angels giving big money to Moustakas immediately after finally being freed of the Hamilton debacle would be them repeating their past mistakes.

What would be nice is to luck out like the 1991 Braves did in adding FA 3B Pendleton for a solid but not big salary, and have him be a catalyst on the field and in the lineup.

[bloodbrother]

2 minutes ago, floplag said:

impossible, TV deal alone pays almost entire payroll, no way no how this team has no money.  
Its making a choice, not doing it out of necessity 

I agree. Not much we can do about it though when Arte owns the team

[Angel Oracle]

14 minutes ago, bloodbrother said:

Unfortunately, the past few seasons have showed to us that it indeed is an issue for Arte. We wondered what the limit was for spending and Arte made that clear with being unwilling to go over the luxury threshold. Not much a GM can do other than clean peanut hunting when his owner doesn't want to spend

The next two off-seasons should see some solid improvements, now that $60+ million AAV payroll is being removed in two months.   Plus, they aren't at the luxury tax threshold now, as it is.  If it doesn't happen by January 2019, then it's likely time for Arte Moreno to sell the team.