We lost the Battle of LA

[Ohtaniland]

2 hours ago, Troll Daddy said:

It will take Eppler 3-5 to turn our farm system around but not the team itself.

The only team I'm concerned with is the Rangers right now. They're not 3-5 years ahead of us. 

The Rangers have a top 5 farm system now, a new manager and a pretty good MLB club. They're going to be tough to catch. They will also inherit some payroll flexibility at the same time as the Angels. 

The "win now"....."we don't rebuild, we just reload" philosophy has come back to bite us. We had a great run from 2002-2009 but sometimes you just have to take a step back and scrap the same old plan and punt the ball.

[Ohtaniland]

1 hour ago, Kevinb said:

Fans need to stop using the term we in general. The fans did nothing. It's the Angels not we. We root for the team to win. We didn't win the game or lose the game the players do. 

"We"is used by 95% of the posters here. If we do this or if we did that.....

If we had signed Heyward we'd still be in 4th place. I think Arte and Eppler ignore all of the in-house GM's we have here.

[Troll Daddy]

15 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

The Rangers have a top 5 farm system now, a new manager and a pretty good MLB club. They're going to be tough to catch. They will also inherit some payroll flexibility at the same time as the Angels. 

The "win now"....."we don't rebuild, we just reload" philosophy has come back to bite us. We had a great run from 2002-2009 but sometimes you just have to take a step back and scrap the same old plan and punt the ball.

Rangers barely squeaked out a series win against the Angels recently in Texas. They have something to play for and sent out the A team against us.

The same goes for the Astros ... except we won that series. They were playing for their playoff lives.

You should pay more attention and stop believing 'the sky is falling ' you read about here from the boneheaded know it alls around here.

[Troll Daddy]

Dodgers are leading baseball in attendance four years straight .

 

[VariousCrap]

27 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

The "win now"....."we don't rebuild, we just reload" philosophy has come back to bite us. 

 

This is BS.  If the Angels didn't have the injury issues this team had this year to the starting rotation and bullpen this season, they would have been in the playoff hunt all season long. 

[Stradling]

Despite going to the World Series last year and being in the playoff hunt last year, it has been determined the Mets have lost the battle of NY.  

[Ohtaniland]

16 minutes ago, VariousCrap said:

 

This is BS.  If the Angels didn't have the injury issues this team had this year to the starting rotation and bullpen this season, they would have been in the playoff hunt all season long. 

The Dodgers had 27 players hit the DL this season. My point is that we have no farm, no depth, and it's because of the "screw the farm, let's win now" mentality. We had no replacements for a reason. We are guilty as charged for not addressing the farm. 

 

[Angel Oracle]

It's also Dipeutered's high floor/ low ceiling drafts from 2012-2015 that partly screwed the org.

[VariousCrap]

1 hour ago, CALZONE said:

The Dodgers had 27 players hit the DL this season. My point is that we have no farm, no depth, and it's because of the "screw the farm, let's win now" mentality. We had no replacements for a reason. We are guilty as charged for not addressing the farm. 

 

You can't compare the two.  The Dodgers had a bunch of injuries to nobody players.  The Angels had injuries to a ton of key players.  If the Dodgers had to use 15 different starting pitchers this season, they wouldn't have done as well.  If the Dodgers lost their Top 3 starting pitchers for almost the entire season, they'd have been in huge trouble.  If the Dodgers lost their closer to injury for almost the entire season, they'd have been in huge trouble.

I'm not denying the Dodgers have way more depth than the Angels have, but injuries is what killed the 2016 season for the Angels.  If the Angels had the rotation of Richards, Heaney, Trop, Shoemaker and Skaggs for the entire season, the Angels would have been in it till the end and may have made the playoffs.

[Stradling]

1 hour ago, CALZONE said:

The Dodgers had 27 players hit the DL this season. My point is that we have no farm, no depth, and it's because of the "screw the farm, let's win now" mentality. We had no replacements for a reason. We are guilty as charged for not addressing the farm. 

 

You realize the reason they could build the farm was they spent $250 million plus a season on payroll.  

[Docwaukee]

45 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

The Rangers have a top 5 farm system now, a new manager and a pretty good MLB club. They're going to be tough to catch. They will also inherit some payroll flexibility at the same time as the Angels. 

The "win now"....."we don't rebuild, we just reload" philosophy has come back to bite us. We had a great run from 2002-2009 but sometimes you just have to take a step back and scrap the same old plan and punt the ball.

They don't have a top 5 farm system.  It's middle of the pack at best.  They traded their 3, 4, 5, and 6 for Lucroy and Beltran.  They graduated their #1 and #2 to the big club. This after sending their previous #3, #5, and #7 to the phils for Hamels. 

They get a break on fielder's remaining money but owe him 9 mil per year for the next 5 years.  They have 100mil committed to 6 players for 2017 and 90 mil to 5 players for 2018.  After this season, they have 82 mil left for choo for 4 more years through age 37.  90 mil to andrus for the next 6 years.  36mil to Beltre for the next two years through age 39.  53 for hamels if they don't pick up his age 35yo option.  They lose Desmond at the end of the year.  Darvish next year.  Holland has a couple of option years at 11.5mil after this one.  Lucroy has an option for next year.  Moreland is a FA.  Mazara and Gallo are club controlled as is Profar.  They are in a smaller market, have less revenue and more commitments.  

They won 88 games last year.  They are on pace for a 95+ wins this year with a run differential of less than 20.  They are 36-11 in one run games.  An astounding feat.  

They actually have the same average player age as the halos.  

They are the epitome of a 'win now' team.  

Houston is far more dangerous.  

[VariousCrap]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

Despite going to the World Series last year and being in the playoff hunt last year, it has been determined the Mets have lost the battle of NY.  

 

In all fairness, the Angels have lost the battle of LA to the Dodgers, but they shouldn't have been in that battle anyways.  The Angels were never going to take over LA from the Dodgers.  That is their town.  The Angels focus needs to be building their brand in the OC and Inland Empire.

[Angelsfirst]

The Dodgers will come back down to earth soon enough when they inevitably exit the playoffs again short of a championship. Then they'll probably  overreact and over pay for a top free agent, pricing every other team out of the market.

Division titles are nice, don't get me wrong. And I'd much rather be in the playoffs every year than not obviously. But  at the end of October, I feel like all 29 of the teams that didn't win the championship all sort of start from the same disappointed, discouraged place. Anyway, as deluded as I may be, I'm looking forward to 2017. 

[VariousCrap]

4 minutes ago, Angelsfirst said:

Anyway, as deluded as I may be, I'm looking forward to 2017. 

 

Richards returning and a few smart signings in the offseason and the Angels can definitely compete in 2017.  

[kevinb]

1 hour ago, VariousCrap said:

You can't compare the two.  The Dodgers had a bunch of injuries to nobody players.  The Angels had injuries to a ton of key players.  If the Dodgers had to use 15 different starting pitchers this season, they wouldn't have done as well.  If the Dodgers lost their Top 3 starting pitchers for almost the entire season, they'd have been in huge trouble.  If the Dodgers lost their closer to injury for almost the entire season, they'd have been in huge trouble.

I'm not denying the Dodgers have way more depth than the Angels have, but injuries is what killed the 2016 season for the Angels.  If the Angels had the rotation of Richards, Heaney, Trop, Shoemaker and Skaggs for the entire season, the Angels would have been in it till the end and may have made the playoffs.

Kershaw is such a nobody I wonder if the Dodgers would trade him to the Angels for a bucket of balls.

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, CALZONE said:

The Dodgers had 27 players hit the DL this season. My point is that we have no farm, no depth, and it's because of the "screw the farm, let's win now" mentality. We had no replacements for a reason. We are guilty as charged for not addressing the farm. 

 

The Dodgers are a good example of how you can win, build a farm and never have to rebuild.  They will always be able to spend more than the Angels, but the way they have operated can be done on a smaller scale.  Has been done on a smaller scale.  See the Angels from 2004-2009.

the Angels biggest problems have been in regards to missed opportunities and risk management.  Not 'farm' vs. 'major league club'.  It's poor decision making and bad execution.  

Pujols, Weaver, Wilson?  Not catastrophes.  Hamilton's original contract?  pretty bad.   But Josh is one player.  If you have done other stuff the right way, one bad player decision on the major league roster shouldn't be that big of a deal.   Contending teams have some bad or unproductive/injured players.  Stuff happens.  Panda, Zimmerman, Werth.  David Price has a 3.91 era and is making 30mil.  Jason Heyward, Choo, Fielder, Ethier, McCarthy, Upton, Zimmerman, Wainwright, Tulo, Cain, etc.  

Did the pujols and hamilton contracts force us to draft poorly?  to ignore foreign markets for 5 years?  Did the 'win now' mentality make us do that?  

'screw the farm' was born of using it to supplement the big club but mostly because a lot of horrible decision making outside of that.  

[ten ocho recon scout]

3 hours ago, Troll Daddy said:

Dodgers are leading baseball in attendance four years straight .

 

They also play in a huge market with a stadium that holds more people than any other stadium. Not saying that to take anything away, but it plays a huge role in the attendance thing

[Inside Pitch]

3 hours ago, Dochalo said:

The Dodgers are a good example of how you can win, build a farm and never have to rebuild.  They will always be able to spend more than the Angels, but the way they have operated can be done on a smaller scale.  Has been done on a smaller scale.  See the Angels from 2004-2009.

The Dodgers, like the 2004-2009 Angels were working under a different set of financial rules thanks to an ownership change.   It will be interesting to see whether or not the Dodgers will continue to operate the way have beyond year 6 of their current ownership.  

The next CBA might also further impact how teams operate in the draft and internationally, making it even more difficult for teams in the future.   Ultimately (and you hit on this), it's going to come down to how intelligently they go about their business.  The Angels simply weren't operated intelligently for a long time.

[Stradling]

6 hours ago, VariousCrap said:

 

In all fairness, the Angels have lost the battle of LA to the Dodgers, but they shouldn't have been in that battle anyways.  The Angels were never going to take over LA from the Dodgers.  That is their town.  The Angels focus needs to be building their brand in the OC and Inland Empire.

It always has been.  They just tried to additionally capitalize on LA when they were dealing with McCourt.

[Ohtaniland]

For the record, we are not competing with the Dodgers. The Dodgers own LA and we don't have the history, tradition or the fan base to compete with them. 

With all of the bickering back and forth about the Dodgers vs Angels we are forgetting the most important thing. We are trying to compete with the Rangers and we are doing a poor job of it. We are in the AL West and the the Dodgers payroll has nothing to do with our failures of 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2015 or 2016. 

[Stradling]

No one is bickering about the Angels vs the Dodgers.  

[Ohtaniland]

7 hours ago, Dochalo said:

The Dodgers are a good example of how you can win, build a farm and never have to rebuild.  They will always be able to spend more than the Angels, but the way they have operated can be done on a smaller scale.  Has been done on a smaller scale.  See the Angels from 2004-2009.

the Angels biggest problems have been in regards to missed opportunities and risk management.  Not 'farm' vs. 'major league club'.  It's poor decision making and bad execution.  

Pujols, Weaver, Wilson?  Not catastrophes.  Hamilton's original contract?  pretty bad.   But Josh is one player.  If you have done other stuff the right way, one bad player decision on the major league roster shouldn't be that big of a deal.   Contending teams have some bad or unproductive/injured players.  Stuff happens.  Panda, Zimmerman, Werth.  David Price has a 3.91 era and is making 30mil.  Jason Heyward, Choo, Fielder, Ethier, McCarthy, Upton, Zimmerman, Wainwright, Tulo, Cain, etc.  

Did the pujols and hamilton contracts force us to draft poorly?  to ignore foreign markets for 5 years?  Did the 'win now' mentality make us do that?  

'screw the farm' was born of using it to supplement the big club but mostly because a lot of horrible decision making outside of that.  

Since 2010 we've made the playoffs only once and the Rangers have won the division 4 times and had 2 second place finishes. They've been able to sustain a farm, sign free agents and bring in tons of playoff revenue. They're not going to just go away. They're also building a new LA Live type development around their stadium with plans to install a roof on their stadium. Arte tried to accomplish a lot of these things but failed. Even the poor ass teams like the A's and Astros are very competitive with us during a time that our neighbors up the 5 freeway are kicking ass. 

[Slegnaac]

13 hours ago, Kevinb said:

Fans need to stop using the term we in general. The fans did nothing. It's the Angels not we. We root for the team to win. We didn't win the game or lose the game the players do. 

Are we awake?

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, CALZONE said:

With all of the bickering back and forth about the Dodgers vs Angels we are forgetting the most important thing. We are trying to compete with the Rangers and we are doing a poor job of it. We are in the AL West and the the Dodgers payroll has nothing to do with our failures of 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2015 or 2016. 

Physician heal thyself...    

You obsess over the Dodgers, bring them up countless time, praise their success, and then tell others to focus on the Rangers, while reminding us of the Dodgers success and our failures.   Pure..  comedy...  gold....

Given you're intent is purely to antagonize and not actually further debate, I'm sort of surprised you haven't been sent to time out for a tiny bit.

Hopefully you're getting your kicks at least.  

[Ohtaniland]

3 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Physician heal thyself...    

You obsess over the Dodgers, bring them up countless time, praise their success, and then tell others to focus on the Rangers, while reminding us of the Dodgers success and our failures.   Pure..  comedy...  gold....

Given you're intent is purely to antagonize and not actually further debate, I'm sort of surprised you haven't been sent to time out for a tiny bit.

Hopefully you're getting your kicks at least.  

Well I discuss baseball and I don't make it personal. Many posters rationalize our failures by claiming other teams spend more money. Why can't people just admit that we've made a lot of bad decisions along the way both on and off the field. 

I know it's difficult for some people to accept but there are some much better baseball organizations than the Angels from top to bottom. We've dropped the ball quite a bit since 2009.