Garrett Richards won't pitch again in 2016 for Angels

[Pujols4MVP]

Todays MLB players are also less like athletes. They don't train as hard or work out as hard.

[ukyah]

9 hours ago, ScottyA_MWAH said:

Guys used to throw 700 innings a season because the average major league fastball was like 75-80 mph. Suddenly a guy comes in tossing 85-90 and it's the fastest thing they've ever seen.

The sport has progressed to the point where bodies are pushed to the limit. Some ligaments can take it (Nolan Ryan) and some can't (Mark Prior). Harder fastballs + pitching since age 10 + harder breaking balls = destroyed ligaments. Thankfully, we have a surgery that can fix it now. 

 

19 minutes ago, ScottyA_MWAH said:

There's a HUGE difference between the pitchers Babe Ruth faced and Mike Trout faces. To pretend there isn't is to simply be ignorant of the evolution of sports. Players are bigger, stronger, faster and better now than they were 10, 20, 50 years ago.

I'd equate the level of play in the 1920's to that of your typical college team today. This isn't to say that elite players back then wouldn't still be major leaguers today. Simply that the talent pool is larger, the quality of nutrition, physical health, coaching, is all better.

Facing s 5'9 white kid who started playing ball when he was 17 and throws 82 mph is a lot different than facing a 6'4 man from the Dominican who has played ball since he could walk and is throwing 95.

From an evolutionary standpoint, we haven't changed, which is why these injuries exist. We're meeting the violent point where our bodies simply cannot be pushed further without injury. But the people who play the game have changed.And whether you like it or not, yiur average player today was a freakin' superstar in the 1950's.

 

don't dance. you said, "the average major league fastball was like 75-80 mph. Suddenly a guy comes in tossing 85-90 and it's the fastest thing they've ever seen."

that's absolute horseshit. 75-80 was never the avg fastball and nobody was blown away by 85-90. there's absolutely no truth to that claim, whatsoever.

i'm not trying to get into an internet argument with you, but a remark like that has to be addressed. 

the only difference in fastball velocity from any era of baseball is the number of guys who can throw 95+. that's been as well discussed and documented as can be, given that there aren't historical radar guns. there were even guys throwing 100 in different eras, although that was a rarity, as it is today.

 

everything in your second post is supposition, as well. why are the players from yesteryear 5'9" white kids who throw 82, and the player from today is a 6'4" dominican who throws 95? 

because the game is global now? there are advantages created by modern science and a global talent pool, but let's not pretend that the difference is mind boggling.

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

46 minutes ago, ScottyA_MWAH said:

There's a HUGE difference between the pitchers Babe Ruth faced and Mike Trout faces. To pretend there isn't is to simply be ignorant of the evolution of sports. Players are bigger, stronger, faster and better now than they were 10, 20, 50 years ago.

Fifty years ago had players like Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Don Drysdale, Warren Spann, Juan Marichal, etc. They had players like Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Duke Snyder, Frank Howard, Pete Rose, Johnny Bench, etc. The player hasn't changed much over the last fifty years IMO.

Baseball has changed more than the player. The mound is lower, pitchers rarely pitch complete games, there is a 5 man rotation instead of 4. The advent of bull pen specialists, the lefty specialist to get 1 batter out, the setup man, and a closer. There is a DH in the AL, so pitchers don't have to hit. We have late inning defense replacements.

Baseball has evolved over the 50 years and beyond but the star players of 50 years ago would be still be stars today. With the advances in sports medicine, players like Koufax may have been able to extend their careers.

[Ray McKigney]

10 hours ago, ukyah said:

this is complete and total bollocks. i'm shocked that a scout would consider this information historically accurate. there is no difference between the speeds reached today or yesteryear by pitchers. the only difference is the number of pitchers who can hit 95+. mlb has been loaded with guys who can throw 90 and above since the beginning of the league.

You should check out a doc on Netflix called Fastball. Discusses this very topic in great detail.

You can read about Fastball here.

[Jeff Fletcher]

2 hours ago, Scioscia4MVP said:

Todays MLB players are also less like athletes. They don't train as hard or work out as hard.

Ummmm, this is fairly ridiculous.  

I don't even know where to begin. It's just .... false. 

[Stradling]

11 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Ummmm, this is fairly ridiculous.  

I don't even know where to begin. It's just .... false. 

Yep.  

[fan_since79]

June 14, 1974, Anaheim Stadium

Nolan Ryan: 13 IP, 58 batters faced, 8 hits, 3 ER, 10 BB, 19 K's.

His pitching coach kept a pitch count with a clicker. 235 pitches for Ryan.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CAL/CAL197406140.shtml

http://gusramsey.blogspot.com/2011/06/my-favorite-box-score-ever.html

[Stradling]

1960's kids weren't playing baseball year round.  Kids weren't throwing junk at age 10.  Kids games weren't big deals back then.  Kids didn't have to choose one sport and play.  

By the way Nolan Ryan was the exception, in a lot of ways.  Why don't you bring up Tanana?

[kevinb]

15 minutes ago, Stradling said:

1960's kids weren't playing baseball year round.  Kids weren't throwing junk at age 10.  Kids games weren't big deals back then.  Kids didn't have to choose one sport and play.  

By the way Nolan Ryan was the exception, in a lot of ways.  Why don't you bring up Tanana?

Kids can only play one sport now? 

[AngelsLakersFan]

16 hours ago, fan_since79 said:

How did Cy Young throw 749 complete games and never have an arm injury?

He threw underhand. Who knew?

[mulwin444]

Watch the documentary "Fastball", pretty interesting.  Goes into Walter Johnson, Bob Feller, Sandy Koufax, etc...early players were hitting mid-90's.  They said using modern calculations that Ryan's Fastball measuredo in '74 100.8 mph...would actually measure 108 today

[Ray McKigney]

 

1 hour ago, Ray McKigney said:

You should check out a doc on Netflix called Fastball. Discusses this very topic in great detail.

You can read about Fastball here.

 

2 minutes ago, mulwin444 said:

Watch the documentary "Fastball", pretty interesting.  Goes into Walter Johnson, Bob Feller, Sandy Koufax, etc...early players were hitting mid-90's.  They said using modern calculations that Ryan's Fastball measuredo in '74 100.8 mph...would actually measure 108 today

 

Hey, people. Watch this documentary!!!!

[Stradling]

14 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

Kids can only play one sport now? 

If you are playing year round travel baseball, and that's pretty common in states with good weather, it's tough to play other sports. 

[Stradling]

14 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

Kids can only play one sport now? 

If you are playing year round travel baseball, and that's pretty common in states with good weather, it's tough to play other sports. 

[Stradling]

14 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

Kids can only play one sport now? 

If you are playing year round travel baseball, and that's pretty common in states with good weather, it's tough to play other sports. 

[kevinb]

Just now, Stradling said:

If you are playing year round travel baseball, and that's pretty common in states with good weather, it's tough to play other sports. 

Aww that sucks. How boring to play one sport only growing up. 

[Blarg]

17 hours ago, fan_since79 said:

How did Cy Young throw 749 complete games and never have an arm injury?

I know, dumb question. Different times, etc. But something's not right when every other pitcher today (seemingly) has to have his elbow ligaments replaced surgically.

 

He threw 60 mph. 

[Second Base]

8 hours ago, ukyah said:

 

 

don't dance. you said, "the average major league fastball was like 75-80 mph. Suddenly a guy comes in tossing 85-90 and it's the fastest thing they've ever seen."

that's absolute horseshit. 75-80 was never the avg fastball and nobody was blown away by 85-90. there's absolutely no truth to that claim, whatsoever.

i'm not trying to get into an internet argument with you, but a remark like that has to be addressed. 

the only difference in fastball velocity from any era of baseball is the number of guys who can throw 95+. that's been as well discussed and documented as can be, given that there aren't historical radar guns. there were even guys throwing 100 in different eras, although that was a rarity, as it is today.

 

everything in your second post is supposition, as well. why are the players from yesteryear 5'9" white kids who throw 82, and the player from today is a 6'4" dominican who throws 95? 

because the game is global now? there are advantages created by modern science and a global talent pool, but let's not pretend that the difference is mind boggling.

We've used video and mathematical evidence to generate a clear estimate on how hard Walter Johnson threw, a man that was said could've been throwing 100.  And guess what, the dude was was throwing 82-83 mph.  When you look at his throwing motion, there's no follow through, no wind up, he's just slinging it.  A man slinging the ball like that, yeah he's probably throwing 82-85 mph.  That's good without any true motion.  Maybe with today's advancements he could've thrown in the upper 90's.  But this hall of fame fireballer from that era threw in the low freakin 80's.  

You can deny it all you want, but players are just bigger, stronger faster.  You see it in  every venue (other than boxing).  Sprinters and long distance runners are shattering olympic records constantly.  In swimming, the fastest swimmers from the 70's would hardly qualify for the games today.  In football, "40" times are faster and coming from players that are huge compared to the speedsters of yesteryear.  Mike Trout himself, who isn't considered "large" for major league baseball is bigger than Babe Ruth, a man that was a giant physically in his time.  He's even bigger than Mickey Mantle, one of the strongest players ever.  He's not only bigger than those guys, but he's faster too. 

And you believe that with every single sport producing better athletes than generations past, baseball is the exception?  That somehow, baseball players today are the same they were 80 years ago, before black players we in the game.  Or even before Latin American and oriental players became a constant source of value.  Come on.  I know there's room for nostalgia in this game, but there's also room for truth.  And the truth is, players today are just flat out better than they were even as recent as 10 years ago, and it really doesn't matter if you've got a soft-spot for hall of famers from 50 years ago.  They didn't face the hitters or pitchers from today, and if they did, most just wouldn't be that good.  There are exceptions, like Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Mickey Mantle, but generally speaking, most good players from that long ago couldn't keep up today.  It's the natural advancement of the game.   

[mulwin444]

They estimated Walter Johnson's "83" was actually closer to 93-94 based on the method used to measure it at that time and compared to how they measured it now.  Guys always threw hard...question was how long their arms would survive

[Angels#1Fan]

Bob Feller and Satchel Paige only threw 75/80?

Seriously?

[Angels#1Fan]

Any study that says Walter Johnson only threw 82/83 is not believable..sorry..I'm not buying it.

[Inside Pitch]

10 hours ago, Ace_Shoemaker said:

Even better how did Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson throw mid to upper 90s, into their mid 40s without needing elbow surgery?

They weren't pitched to death prior to age 25.  Neither RJ nor Ryan topped 200 IP in a season until age 26 and 25 respectively.   There is something to letting a guy mature physically before Terry Collins-ing them.

 

[Second Base]

7 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

They weren't pitched to death prior to age 25.  Neither RJ nor Ryan topped 200 IP in a season until age 26 and 25 respectively.   There is something to letting a guy mature physically before Terry Collins-ing them.

 

I agree with that. Once a player is fully mature, less restrictions might be in order. Ryan was just one of those once in a generation pitchers whose body wouldn't fail him until his 40's. Hank Aaron too. And I don't think either were using PED's, unless Tylonal is one.

[Angels#1Fan]

22 minutes ago, Angels#1Fan said:

Any study that says Walter Johnson only threw 82/83 is not believable..sorry..I'm not buying it.

BTW..Walter Johnson only had one pitch his first ten years in MLB.

He didn't even develop a curve until he was well into his 30's.

He never would have survived with only a 82/83 fast ball those ten years.

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

YMMV

[maximus p]

12 hours ago, Stradling said:

If you are playing year round travel baseball, and that's pretty common in states with good weather, it's tough to play other sports. 

You can say that again...and again..!