This team reflects their leader

[Homebrewer]

At least Scioscia is off to a solid start, mis-managing a record amount of games already this season.

[BleedRed]

Something needs to change, that's for sure. Most of the team just seems dull and uninspired and error prone when the chips are down. . That Howie-Pujols routine in the 15th was so typical...

The buck stops with the manager, IMO

[yk9001]

At least Scioscia is off to a solid start, mis-managing a record amount of games already this season.

 

And that's without all his usual buntiness.

[Homebrewer]

Something needs to change, that's for sure. Most of the team just seems dull and uninspired and error prone when the chips are down. . That Howie-Pujols routine in the 15th was so typical...

The buck stops with the manager, IMO

The only time this manager seems to get upset is when someone fails to get a bunt down or otherwise messes up his "productive out" philosophy. 

[Lifetime]

Okay, but check within the 2011 April (under .500 until the last few games), and just after April 2010 (record falling to something like 12-17).

 

Point being, they almost never come out of the gate solidly anymore.   That is what needs to be discussed.

Is it the constant turnover in players since 2010?

Is it Scioscia being more into finding the right pieces in April?  

lol so now it's not a slow or bad April EVERY year but you don't think they come out solidly enough for your liking so you're trying to find a particular cause or reason for it. Therefore, not being able to put your finger on it, you blame Scioscia for not properly preparing them or the players for not caring or being complacent - as your incessant ranting proclaims. 

 

Player turnover may have something to do with it the last couple of years. Scioscia trying to find the right formula probably has something to do with it - then again, that isn't a new strategy for him. 

 

We don't have a strong pitching staff nor did we last year. We have to rely on the mediocre bullpen for too many innings every game which exploits their weaknesses even further (much like last year). We have a potent offense that seemingly needs to score a minimum of 5 runs to have a chance to win, who is pretty consistently fighting from behind early in the game. And then when they do hit well, like last night, it is all for naught because the weak and tired pen can't hold the lead. The offense is pressing. One of our big guns is in a wicked slump and flailing, one of our other big guns is fighting a very painful injury but trying to play through because he knows how much this team needs his offense right now. And then on top of all of that, we have some injuries to key contributors that we don't have adequate replacements for. It seems to me like there is plenty of reason to see why this team is off to a slow start. 

[Lifetime]

The only time this manager seems to get upset is when someone fails to get a bunt down or otherwise messes up his "productive out" philosophy. 

really? when is the last time you saw him get upset about that? What do you know about when he gets upset or doesn't? I'll answer - you don't by any stretch of the imagination. 

[Homebrewer]

really? when is the last time you saw him get upset about that? What do you know about when he gets upset or doesn't? I'll answer - you don't by any stretch of the imagination. 

You have to look closely for little signs....the way he wiggles his pen when writing whatever he writes.. "note's to self?"

Otherwise, granted, it is really hard to decipher the blank, lifeless, often perplexed (what just happened?) look on his mug.

[robblin17]

really? when is the last time you saw him get upset about that? What do you know about when he gets upset or doesn't? I'll answer - you don't by any stretch of the imagination. 

 

Lifetime, do you think Scioscia should bear any burden for missing the playoffs the last three seasons and this atrocious start this year? 

[Lifetime]

Sure. Should he bear the level of blame some here like you try to heap on him? Absolutely not.

[Lifetime]

You have to look closely for little signs....the way he wiggles his pen when writing whatever he writes.. "note's to self?"

Otherwise, granted, it is really hard to decipher the blank, lifeless, often perplexed (what just happened?) look on his mug.

so you got nothin

[mulwin444]

 "We don't have a strong pitching staff nor did we last year. We have to rely on the mediocre bullpen for too many innings every game which exploits their weaknesses even further (much like last year). We have a potent offense that seemingly needs to score a minimum of 5 runs to have a chance to win, who is pretty consistently fighting from behind early in the game. And then when they do hit well, like last night, it is all for naught because the weak and tired pen can't hold the lead. The offense is pressing. One of our big guns is in a wicked slump and flailing, one of our other big guns is fighting a very painful injury but trying to play through because he knows how much this team needs his offense right now. And then on top of all of that, we have some injuries to key contributors that we don't have adequate replacements for. It seems to me like there is plenty of reason to see why this team is off to a slow start. "

Basically, this.  We lost our Ace so we've had to depend on a head-case like WIlson, who can barely make it to the 6th, a couple of WHIP destroyers like Blanton and Vargas, a decent 4 starter in Hanson, and a AAA project in Richards.  Add to that a BP who hasn't seen solid contributions from Jepsen, Madson, and Burnett, a declining Downs, an inconsistent Frieri, and a cast of characters that make you long for the days of Jason Bulger and Bobby Cassevaugh, and this team is going to struggle to prevent runs.   

 

As for the offense, Hamilton has been the invisible man, Pujols is injured, Trout is trying to make adjustments, Ianetta has been "meh, and Kendrick waffles from All-Star to bench player, sometimes within the same game. 

 

I'm not a huge Scioscia fan but it's hard to rationalize the grip of injuries being his fault.  Also, I don't know how he can be held responsible for the team's awful AVG with RISP.   Perhaps it's DiPoto's fault for assembling this team and leaving the high minors and bench devoid of talent. 

[robblin17]

Sure. Should he bear the level of blame some here like you try to heap on him? Absolutely not.

 

Okay, that is fair. And as a follow up, what do you do with Scioscia if:

 

1) We miss the playoffs this year for the 4th year in a row?

2) We start off slowly again next April?

3) We miss the playoffs next year for the 5th year in a row?

 

The last two questions are obviously predicated on if he is still around based on your previous responses. I'm not trying to be facetious, but I just want to know what would be the Scioscia backers' breaking point. 

[Angel Oracle]

That was a good synopsis, LT.    And it isn't all on Scioscia, but how the org has reached this point does fall on a lot of folks from Arte Moreno, through his GMs since Reagins was hired, through the MLB coaching, through Arte's lack of foreign presence impacting the farm, and the scouts who find the players we've drafted the past 5+ seasons. 

 

Maybe we are heading SLOWLY in the right direction, starting with a bigger emphasis on more advanced college players in the draft the past two drafts.   But there are still the coaching and foreign presence questions that need to be answered.

 

And can Arte avoid new big contracts over the next 3 years, unless ONE super pitcher still in his late 20s (like Price) is available as a FA?  

Pitching is what usually wins championships, ultimately.

[Lifetime]

Okay, that is fair. And as a follow up, what do you do with Scioscia if:

1) We miss the playoffs this year for the 4th year in a row?

2) We start off slowly again next April?

3) We miss the playoffs next year for the 5th year in a row?

The last two questions are obviously predicated on if he is still around based on your previous responses. I'm not trying to be facetious, but I just want to know what would be the Scioscia backers' breaking point.

I don't play that game of what if hypotheticals. As I have said many times, if the FO feels that replacing Scioscia needs to be done fine. The fact of the matter is, only they can judge his effectiveness as a manager.

[robblin17]

I don't play that game of what if hypotheticals. As I have said many times, if the FO feels that replacing Scioscia needs to be done fine. The fact of the matter is, only they can judge his effectiveness as a manager.

 

So there is no way for someone on the outside to judge three consecutive seasons of missing the playoffs as ineffective? I think that is ridiculous. 

At the end of the day, Scioscia is paid for results. He is not paid to be liked or respected and he is the Captain of the ship. 

[Lifetime]

Yes that's correct, there is no way for us on the outside to judge Scioscia job soley based on what we see.

And I'd venture to say being liked and respected is part of his job expectations.

[robblin17]

Yes that's correct, there is no way for us on the outside to judge Scioscia job soley based on what we see.

And I'd venture to say being liked and respected is part of his job expectations.

 

LOL. Well apparently this is being held above wins and losses in this organization. That is such an absurd statement. 

 

I wonder if Nick Saban, Bob Knight, Bill Belichick, and Earl Weaver were/are being paid to be liked and respected ahead of winning? With winning comes respect and admiration. 

[mtangelsfan]

I think his point is this:  Chances are pretty solid that those above him in the organization have more facts, more information, more insight and more experience into Sosh's effectiveness than Joe fan does.  Hence they are much better positioned to make the final decision on his fate.

 

My guess is that Sosh will "step down" if they don't make the playoffs this year.  They will buy him out and that will be the end of it.

[Adam]

I think change for the sake of change is sometimes appropriate. I think LT and Mulwin make some good points. I think we care too much. 

 

The pitching is terrible. Nothing is going to fix that other than acquiring better pitchers. 

[Zach]

Okay, that is fair. And as a follow up, what do you do with Scioscia if:

 

1) We miss the playoffs this year for the 4th year in a row?

2) We start off slowly again next April?

3) We miss the playoffs next year for the 5th year in a row?

 

The last two questions are obviously predicated on if he is still around based on your previous responses. I'm not trying to be facetious, but I just want to know what would be the Scioscia backers' breaking point. 

 

The "breaking point" shouldn't be performance based, because it's basically statistically proven that, on the aggregate, the game management of managers at the big league level is *irrelevant*:

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=16630

However, it should be noted, just for funsies, who rankes No. 1 on the list of "manager wins above replacement":

 

http://darowski.com/hall-of-wwar/expectancy/

 

The only real justification for dismissing a manager is when they "lose the clubhouse" -- which clearly hasn't happened with Scioscia, according to those journalists who are actually in the clubhouse every day -- or when they do something which puts an undue media focus on the team, i.e. Joe Torre batting Alex Rodriguex eighth or Ron Washington's drug use. But even in the latter case, obviously, the Rangers smartly decided that weathering that storm was smarter than bringing in an unknown quantity to lead the club.

[Homebrewer]

An Oakland sweep, (which after losing a marathon last night, is a distinct possibility)

should bring out a few bag-heads to the Big A, which will wind up on MLB Tonight, Sportscenter, the Times and the Register.

 

That, and a sea of unused seats, is what will force changes. 

[robblin17]

I think his point is this:  Chances are pretty solid that those above him in the organization have more facts, more information, more insight and more experience into Sosh's effectiveness than Joe fan does.  Hence they are much better positioned to make the final decision on his fate.

 

My guess is that Sosh will "step down" if they don't make the playoffs this year.  They will buy him out and that will be the end of it.

 

And I agree with all of that.  I would hope, at least, the organization is better informed than we are, but that should not discredit what the fan/onlooker sees. Especially in today's day and age with all the information you could ever want available at your fingertips. 

[robblin17]

The "breaking point" shouldn't be performance based, because it's basically statistically proven that, on the aggregate, the game management of managers at the big league level is *irrelevant*:

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=16630

However, it should be noted, just for funsies, who rankes No. 1 on the list of "manager wins above replacement":

 

http://darowski.com/hall-of-wwar/expectancy/

 

The only real justification for dismissing a manager is when they "lose the clubhouse" -- which clearly hasn't happened with Scioscia, according to those journalists who are actually in the clubhouse every day -- or when they do something which puts an undue media focus on the team, i.e. Joe Torre batting Alex Rodriguex eighth or Ron Washington's drug use. But even in the latter case, obviously, the Rangers smartly decided that weathering that storm was smarter than bringing in an unknown quantity to lead the club.

 

Well, to be fair, his numbers are definitely going to be inflated due to his success prior to the last three seasons. Baseball is a what have you done for me lately type game, as are ALL professional sports. 

If you showed me the second link based off of the last three years I would take it with more merit. 

[tdawg87]

I pretty much agree with LT in this thread.

 

Although I lean slightly more to the "fire Scioscia" side, just because I feel it is time for a change. Not because I feel it is entirely his fault this team is a complete disaster.

[mtangelsfan]

And I agree with all of that.  I would hope, at least, the organization is better informed than we are, but that should not discredit what the fan/onlooker sees. Especially in today's day and age with all the information you could ever want available at your fingertips. 

 

Just the statistical information.  Fans do not know what happens in the dugout, locker room or clubhouse.  Which is really a majority of what makes a manager effective or not.  Regardless, fans will be fans and have their opinions.  Nobody here is saying they can't, but some folks may just not agree.