Medical Research by Country

[Stradling]

Pull yourself up by the bootstraps may not work but neither does welfare. So instead of just the victims being affected so is everyone else because we pay more into a system that doesn't work.

I'm not against paying a "fair share" to help the truly helpless. However I already pay much more than what's fair. I am 100% of the mindset of if they want more money first learn to manage the money you have. If it's not enough start to cut.

[Angelsjunky]

Very easy to make a blanket statement like that when you don't know the facts.

Please explain to me how insurance companies profit from chronic illness? paying out thousands of dollars in claims to companies like mine I am sure is not helping them profit.

Hospitals? Please tell that to all the hospital workers who lose their jobs every year due to bankrupt hospitals closing because of treating so many indigent patients who have no insurance, or means to pay.

Don't worry, ObamaCare is here to save the day! Confederate Currency>ObamaCare

 

Your issue is with my assertion that pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies, and hospitals profit from chronic illnesses. Are you saying that isn't true?

 

I'm not saying ALL, of course. There are always exceptions. But by and large, those are for-profit industries.

[Stradling]

They're all flawed. The question is, what are the flaws of our system and how can they be improved? We don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I see the flaws mainly having to do with cost. As the wealthiest country in the world, I see no reason why at least basic medical care and emergency care shouldn't be free.

While I have my issues with Obamacare, it did address one major flaw: pre-existing conditions, although it arguably exacerbated others (e.g. more limited treatment).

AJ I don't know what you make a year so I don't know your tax burden. The amount I pay in certainly would cover "free" health care for me and my family. But what about the 40%+ that pay to the federal government each year and get every penny back? The last I heard that number was like 47%, but I don't remember the source. Who pays for them? The answer is simply some poorly defined term "rich" people. If you decide to make business pay for it through taxes then goods and services go up for everyone and medical expenses will also go up.

[Stradling]

Your issue is with my assertion that pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies, and hospitals profit from chronic illnesses. Are you saying that isn't true?

I'm not saying ALL, of course. There are always exceptions. But by and large, those are for-profit industries.

Are you saying companies shouldn't profit?

[Angelsjunky]

Pull yourself up by the bootstraps may not work but neither does welfare. So instead of just the victims being affected so is everyone else because we pay more into a system that doesn't work.

I'm not against paying a "fair share" to help the truly helpless. However I already pay much more than what's fair. I am 100% of the mindset of if they want more money first learn to manage the money you have. If it's not enough start to cut.

 

So we're agreed. But what does work? Or rather, what works for as many people as possible? Answer: Nothing. You can't please everyone. The idea, in my view, is to continually strive towards something better.

 

I've said again and again that most of these issues aren't about right or wrong, but different and competing paradigms and--hopefully--an ongoing attempt to integrate the best of both worlds and jettison the worst, ala Hegel's dialectic. This idea is very threatening, or at least not understood, by those who want either/or answers, right vs. wrong, capitalism = good, socialism = bad, etc etc. The world isn't so simple.

[NJHalo]

AJ: please explain how insurance companies profit from chronic illness?

[Angelsjunky]

AJ I don't know what you make a year so I don't know your tax burden. The amount I pay in certainly would cover "free" health care for me and my family. But what about the 40%+ that pay to the federal government each year and get every penny back? The last I heard that number was like 47%, but I don't remember the source. Who pays for them? The answer is simply some poorly defined term "rich" people. If you decide to make business pay for it through taxes then goods and services go up for everyone and medical expenses will also go up.

 

But why do expenses go up? Because businesses are beholden to their share holders, and the profit incentive rules the day. This is why CEO salaries continue to rise, while workers are paid less - or why the good folks at Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley received bonuses while they were being bailed out by us! Think about how ****ed up that is. The big banks say, "but we need to keep getting wealthier, no matter what."

 

There's wealth out there, the problem is that it has and continues to "trickle up."

 

Are you saying companies shouldn't profit?

 

Again, it isn't either/or. I'm not against capitalism, I'm against "capitalism gone wild" - putting the profit motive above everything else, which leads to exploitation of human and natural resources.

 

Profit is never in a vacuum. We say, "charge as much as people will possibly pay." Isn't there a problem with that, especially with regards to health care?

[Angelsjunky]

AJ: please explain how insurance companies profit from chronic illness?

 

You're technically right that they don't directly profit from chronic illness. Rather, insurance companies profit more from avoiding sick people, through dumping accounts that aren't profitable. This is an industry practice that I'm sure you know about, right?

 

Pharmaceutical companies profit more from chronic illness, and probably hospitals to a lesser extent - although I think hospitals mainly profit from unnecessary and massively inflated medical procedures.

[Adam]

Why was Sheen's procedure "complete and utter bullshit?"

You seem to have a naive belief in the FDA.

Why?

So you're basically saying that we should have the same worldview we had when we were children. OK.

I don't know how much you know about developmental psychology, Adam, but some people continue to develop psychologically and morally beyond childhood.

If that's what you believe the implication is, then shit man.

I sat through a developmental psych class in college. Got an A. And almost got the clap. Some bangin broads in that class.

[nate]

You're technically right that they don't directly profit from chronic illness. Rather, insurance companies profit more from avoiding sick people, through dumping accounts that aren't profitable. This is an industry practice that I'm sure you know about, right?

 

Pharmaceutical companies profit more from chronic illness, and probably hospitals to a lesser extent - although I think hospitals mainly profit from unnecessary and massively inflated medical procedures.

 

Lol, you show your ignorance again.  Only individual policies could drop members through underwriting and that hasn't occurred in a few years.  Additionally, they always had plans available to them called guaranteed issue.

[m0nkey]

What are your goals, AFL? Share what you value most? 

I hope to be like Adam when I grow up

[Blarg]

None of you are on topic which is why it is so disappointing to see every new thread devolve into the same arguments.

The topic is medical Research. If you can't stay on that topic then please quit being agenda boars and go back to your Bernie threads.

[ABC]

I wonder how much of that is tied to us being over weight and lazy as opposed to medicine. I've traveled a bit and the US has to be the least likely to walk to work, or to a bus stop, or to a train station, or to exercise.

 

Poor nutrition and lack of exercise is the problem. 

 

A shitty food culture, broken FDA, unaccountable food companies, poor education, etc lead to an overweight nation that get mocked around the world. How do you fix the problems beyond just putting it on the people and claiming personal responsibility.

 

The South and Midwest definitely bring the average of the coasts down. 

[NJHalo]

You're technically right that they don't directly profit from chronic illness. Rather, insurance companies profit more from avoiding sick people, through dumping accounts that aren't profitable. This is an industry practice that I'm sure you know about, right?

 

Pharmaceutical companies profit more from chronic illness, and probably hospitals to a lesser extent - although I think hospitals mainly profit from unnecessary and massively inflated medical procedures.

You have a future in politics. Not answering the question that was asked. You stated that insurance companies profit from chronic illness. Please explain.

Also, your accusation against hospitals profiting from unnecessary procedures is accusing a doctor of criminal activity. They are the ones ordering any surgeries, not a hospital. There are shady people in EVERY business, so it is again, unfair to make that blanket statement. Hospitals are financially on the hook for NECESSARY surgeries performed on people without insurance, or the means to pay far more often than an unnecessary, profitable criminal procedure. That is a fact.

Edited March 9, 2016 by NJHalo

[Angelsjunky]

If that's what you believe the implication is, then shit man.

I sat through a developmental psych class in college. Got an A. And almost got the clap. Some bangin broads in that class.

 

Forget the rest...what do you mean, "almost got the clap?"

 

Seriously though, I realize that's not what you intentionally meant, that we should stay at a childhood level of morality. But the quote you offered are the things one learns in childhood, and we can continue to learn, to expand our view and develop our morality. Not everyone does, unfortunately.

 

 

Lol, you show your ignorance again.  Only individual policies could drop members through underwriting and that hasn't occurred in a few years.  Additionally, they always had plans available to them called guaranteed issue.

 

http://www.publicintegrity.org/2015/01/26/16658/health-insurers-watch-profits-soar-they-dump-small-business-customers

 

 

If you guys were wondering why in the world would AJ defend Charlie Sheen's quack, of all people, he really should've provided full disclosure.

The quack was a guest on Bill Maher and Maher fawned all over him.

 

I'm not defending him, I'm just not automatically assuming he's a quack.

[nate]

http://www.publicintegrity.org/2015/01/26/16658/health-insurers-watch-profits-soar-they-dump-small-business-customers

 

 

Those small businesses have plenty of options, just because they got dumped by one insurer.  It is all underwriting and it isn't happening randomly, they are up for renewal and they are not renewed.

 

By the way, plenty of small businesses do it the other way around and constantly change insurers every year because they get lower rates the first year.  They also would cheat the system by hiding applications for ill or unhealthy employees at the time of underwriting.  That caused the DOI to introduce a 90 day lookback law that allows insurers to re-underwrite them.

Edited March 9, 2016 by nate

[Angelsjunky]

You have a future in politics. Not answering the question that was asked. You stated that insurance companies profit from chronic illness. Please explain.

Also, your accusation against hospitals profiting from unnecessary procedures is accusing a doctor of criminal activity. They are the ones ordering any surgeries, not a hospital. There are shady people in EVERY business, so it is again, air to make that blanket statement. Hospitals are financially on the hook for NECESSARY surgeries performed on people without insurance, or the means to pay far more often than an unnecessary, profitable criminal procedure. That is a fact.

 

Dude, LOL - I answered your question. I even gave you that they don't necessarily directly profit from chronic illness.

 

And I'm sure you're right, that there is no corruption in the medical business. My bad.

[nate]

There is far more corruption in the government.  Especially when you give them even more money and power.  Consumers have options against privately owned businesses.  They do not have options when the government owns and controls it.

[Angelsjunky]

Those small businesses have plenty of options, just because they got dumped by one insurer.  It is all underwriting and it isn't happening randomly, they are up for renewal and they are not renewed.

 

By the way, plenty of small businesses do it the other way around and constantly change insurers every year because they get lower rates the first year.  They also would cheat the system by hiding applications for ill or unhealthy employees at the time of underwriting.  That caused the DOI to introduce a 90 day lookback law that allows insurers to re-underwrite them.

 

So you said that doesn't happen, then you admit that it happens, but you call it something different ("not renewed"). OK.

 

The whole system seems pretty ****ed up to me and is one of the reasons I'm for universal healthcare.

[Adam]

There is far more corruption in the government.  Especially when you give them even more money and power.  Consumers have options against privately owned businesses.  They do not have options when the government owns and controls it.

 

Precisely

[Angelsjunky]

There is far more corruption in the government.  Especially when you give them even more money and power.  Consumers have options against privately owned businesses.  They do not have options when the government owns and controls it.

 

I don't know, nate, I think corruption exists throughout the system and it is awfully difficult (and maybe pointless) to figure out whether there is more in the government or more in the private sector. I personally find the areas where the two work together (the wealthy private sector and the government) to screw everyone else.

[Adam]

 (the wealthy private sector and the government)

 

One of those can control you via force

[nate]

So you said that doesn't happen, then you admit that it happens, but you call it something different ("not renewed"). OK.

 

The whole system seems pretty ****ed up to me and is one of the reasons I'm for universal healthcare.

 

They aren't randomly being dropped, they are up for renewal and are not renewed.  Health insurance is a marketplace, they can go elsewhere and get another plan.

 

FYI usually the reason they are dropped is because underwriting underestimated the cost and are losing tons of money and they cannot increase rates more than a fixed % so instead they do not renew.  All these small businesses have brokers who can get them a new plan easily.  It is not like they are going without coverage, they are just changing plans.

[arch stanton]

One of those can control you via force

At the bidding of the other.

[Angelsjunky]

They aren't randomly being dropped, they are up for renewal and are not renewed.  Health insurance is a marketplace, they can go elsewhere and get another plan.

 

FYI usually the reason they are dropped is because underwriting underestimated the cost and are losing tons of money and they cannot increase rates more than a fixed % so instead they do not renew.  All these small businesses have brokers who can get them a new plan easily.  It is not like they are going without coverage, they are just changing plans.

 

OK, fair enough. Its a business. But again, it is still insurance companies essentially dropping clients. It seems like a tug of war, both sides wanting to make as much/lose as little money as possible. A lot of this would be at least ameliorated with universal health care.

 

By the way, what field of insurance do you work in?

 

One of those can control you via force

 

True enough. But they work together, no? And when we say "government," who do we mean? Who benefits?

 

Oligarchy, man, oligarchy.