Hilary or Trump?

[arch stanton]

well, i don't entirely form my political outlook around middle east.  Even though I am interested by it.  its not my main thing when i'm voting.

 

Also, I don't really care about bombing the ISIS maniacs.  Clinton will likely maintain the agreement with Iran which, I think in terms of preserving American lives is a critically important foreign policy decision.  Probably the biggest one in terms of the middle east.  I dont really know what can be done about the Saudi/Iran feud.  Thats the primary source of the blood letting in the region.  I think that the region is massively, massively troubled by deep sectarian issues.  There probably is not a lot that we can do to make it better.  We just don't have the leverage in the region to influence Iran or really even Saudi in that conflict.  They will fight it out, via proxy for now anyway.  As far as Israel and Palestine.  Nothing is changing there until Netanyahou goes....just as a baseline.  The Palestinians have even more issues probably.  Abbas is likely going to be out of the picture during the next 4 years.  There is already internal jockeying to position for a power grab.  Its very difficult to see who emerges from that.  In any case, if there is a hope for some kind of settlement Clinton has plenty of experience dealing with both sides.  She IMO probably has better shot at brokering a deal then basically any of the other candidates just based on that.

We don't have to do anything. The Saudis will keep the taps open until Iran cries uncle or the Russians throw in the towel for them. The Saudis are the only ones on the planet who can survive $25 oil much longer.

[UndertheHalo]

We don't have to do anything. The Saudis will keep the taps open until Iran cries uncle or the Russians throw in the towel for them. The Saudis are the only ones on the planet who can survive $25 oil much longer.

 

this is a great point that highlights another aspect of that fight.  The economic siege that Saudi has been laying on Iran.  Fully agree theres nothing for us to do.  It was the point I was trying to make.  Part of the reason we've seen oil down so much. 

[Make Angels Great Again]

It should give anyone pause that Hillary takes advice from Henry Kissinger.

[red321]

It isn't surprising to me that many Republicans will vote for Hillary, because she's basically a Republican.

 

Why the hell would you write something so friggen stupid.

 

If you can't see the difference between Hillary, and the cast of ****ing misfits on the Republican side, you need to go back and read up on the actual issues. 

 

Clinton is not Sanders, she's not Warren...but she is certainly a left learning moderate.

 

Yes, she is a flawed candidate...but to think her policies are anything close to what you see on the Republican side is just moronic.

[Angelsjunky]

Why the hell would you write something so friggen stupid.

 

If you can't see the difference between Hillary, and the cast of ****ing misfits on the Republican side, you need to go back and read up on the actual issues. 

 

Clinton is not Sanders, she's not Warren...but she is certainly a left learning moderate.

 

Yes, she is a flawed candidate...but to think her policies are anything close to what you see on the Republican side is just moronic.

 

You misunderstand what I meant, and perhaps I should have been more clear. Of course I can see the difference -- but you're also talking about the "cast of misfits" currently running, not the history of the Republican party, like I am. The Clintons pushed the political spectrum to the right, so now what we call "moderate" is a bit to the right relative to history. But to put it another way:

 

Clinton:

Social: Left-leaning

Economics: Moderate

Foreign policy: Right-leaning

[Adam]

She's a warmongering corporatist. Checks most of the R boxes

[Adam]

For the last few years she's been down with blacks and gays though. Liberal!

[Angelsjunky]

[the dude abides]

For the last few years she's been down with blacks and gays though. Liberal!

 

Until 2013 she shared the same view of marriage equality as Mike Huckabee and Ted Cruz.

 

Progressive!

[red321]

I would agree, somewhat, with that.

 

I'm not sure I would sign up for the Clintons pushed the spectrum to the right - yes, they pushed a more draconian welfare reform than was necessary, DOMA, and mandatory sentances amongst other things. They certainly wouldn't be viewed as overly liberal historically. But, the push to the right has more to do with the Republican party taking a huge turn to the right more so than the Clinton presidency.

 

Positions that were defacto Republican platform items,  like Cap and Trade and Health Care Reform, are now considered outright socialism by those on the right. 

 

That isn't due to the Clinton's as much as it is the fact that conservatism doesn't stand for anything nowadays outside of whatever the Democrats want I don't.

[Adam]

I've watched this a few times. I keep hoping that Hil will throw her coffee on the young broad. 

 

http://dailycaller.com/2016/03/01/hillary-lashes-out-at-voter-why-dont-you-go-run-for-something-then/

[Angelsjunky]

I would agree, somewhat, with that.

 

I'm not sure I would sign up for the Clintons pushed the spectrum to the right - yes, they pushed a more draconian welfare reform than was necessary, DOMA, and mandatory sentances amongst other things. They certainly wouldn't be viewed as overly liberal historically. But, the push to the right has more to do with the Republican party taking a huge turn to the right more so than the Clinton presidency.

 

Positions that were defacto Republican platform items,  like Cap and Trade and Health Care Reform, are now considered outright socialism by those on the right. 

 

That isn't due to the Clinton's as much as it is the fact that conservatism doesn't stand for anything nowadays outside of whatever the Democrats want I don't.

 

Don't forget about NAFTA and the various military operations that Clinton was involved in, which wasn't as extreme as Reagan-Bush, but still was rather hawkish.

 

But my point is that the Clintons are only "liberal" relative to arch-conservatives like Cruz and various neo-cons.

 

My main problem with Hillary is I have no idea what she actually believes. I highly doubt she was against gay marriage up until three years--really only the most literalist evangelicals are these days--but that almost makes it worse, that she'll say and do whatever she thinks is politically expedient. It is hard for me not to feel that what she really wants, more than anything else, is to be written into the history books as the first female president.

 

Actually, that's my secondary issue with her; my main issue is that she is a corporatist through and through and, combined with her faux progressivism--which is just taking Bernie's rhetoric and re-tooling it--is pulling wool over the eyes of her supporters.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

[HaloMagic]

Did Deborah Friedell factor in the cost of the paint he'd have to buy?

[HaloMagic]

Because most Americans don't want to throw their vote away on someone who can't win. They'd rather throw it away on someone they don't really want to win. That way when their guy wins they can feel like part of the winning team. Even if the winning team disagrees with everything they believe in.

Good job Americans.

[Angelsjunky]

Why does it matter if he is a legit candidate or not? If you agree with him the most why not vote for him? If everyone voted their conscience we wouldn't be in the 2 party dictatorship we are in.

 

It depends upon what the other options are and, to be honest, who there is to vote against. I will not vote for Hillary, but I will vote against Trump or Cruz, so will likely have to cast my vote for Hillary.

 

And while I hate the idea of voting for Hillary and would much rather vote for Bernie, Jill Stein, or Gary Johnson, voting against Trump or Cruz is voting my conscience.

[Jim]

Made me laugh a few times and I will never vote for Trump but that is full of inaccuracies, out of context facts and business ignorance. This dweeb hopes to gawd that he gets the attention of Trump to get more eyeballs to his underwhelming show.

What is inaccurate?

[arch stanton]

It depends upon what the other options are and, to be honest, who there is to vote against. I will not vote for Hillary, but I will vote against Trump or Cruz, so will likely have to cast my vote for Hillary.

 

And while I hate the idea of voting for Hillary and would much rather vote for Bernie, Jill Stein, or Gary Johnson, voting against Trump or Cruz is voting my conscience.

This is where we'll have to disagree. Voting for any candidate who is not the one you feel is the best potential president just feeds the cycle of mediocrity and strengthens the grip of the two party stranglehold on the country. It sets the bar pretty low to only have to suck a little less than the other guy in the minds of the voters. So voting against Trump would just be voting to allow the two national parties to dictate to us unchecked. if everyone who dislikes what's happening would support a qualified third party guy instead of a camera-whoring blowhard in the name of change then maybe eventually we get change.

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

[Tank]

 

Just watch this...it's totally worth it...

 

finally got around to watching this. hilarious.

 

"i'm a vegan, therefore i know karate!"

[Angelsjunky]

But the thing is, most of the time the person you vote for has the same positions as the person you voted against. Such has been true the past 30 presidential elections.

 

That's a pretty big exaggeration. I mean, I hear your point and feel that most establishment politicians are basically either left-leaning or right-leaning moderates who support plutocracy, and the main differences are personality, tone, and rhetoric. But let's take the environment: there's a pretty big difference in Clinton and the Republicans. Or what about funding of Planned Parenthood, or Trump's plan of reducing education spending. Etc, etc.

 

This is where we'll have to disagree. Voting for any candidate who is not the one you feel is the best potential president just feeds the cycle of mediocrity and strengthens the grip of the two party stranglehold on the country. It sets the bar pretty low to only have to suck a little less than the other guy in the minds of the voters. So voting against Trump would just be voting to allow the two national parties to dictate to us unchecked. if everyone who dislikes what's happening would support a qualified third party guy instead of a camera-whoring blowhard in the name of change then maybe eventually we get change.

 

Well we don't disagree on this. I think you are right, but am also terrified at the prospect of President Trump or President Cruz.

 

To be honest, I'm still torn on this and haven't made up my mind what I'll do. One day I feel like I'll have to suck it up and vote for Hillary, and then I watch a debate and despise her all over again and think "Bernie or Bust." Even though I hate the idea of President Trump, I'm also somewhat fascinated by it, and I also think that if Hillary is the nomination, the Democratic Party and its corporate media extensions (MSNBC, NPR, etc) deserves to be humiliated and hopefully learns its lesson. My hope is that whatever happens, what we're seeing right now is the beginning of the breaking up of the two-party system.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Angelsjunky

[Adam]

I think more people will be "terrified" of a bernie sanders presidency

[Angelsjunky]

I think more people will be "terrified" of a bernie sanders presidency

 

I think the only people who are "terrified" of a Bernie presidency are 1) The very wealthy, establishment politicians, corporatists, CEOs, bankers, and Wall Street, 2) The ignorant who aren't in the first category but who unwittingly support those folks, perhaps through not understanding what "democratic socialism" means.

[Adam]

I think the only people who are "terrified" of a Bernie presidency are 1) The very wealthy, establishment politicians, corporatists, CEOs, bankers, and Wall Street, 2) The ignorant who aren't in the first category but who unwittingly support those folks, perhaps through not understanding what "democratic socialism" means.

 

Lol ok bud

[mtangelsfan]

I think the only people who are "terrified" of a Bernie presidency are 1) The very wealthy, establishment politicians, corporatists, CEOs, bankers, and Wall Street, 2) The ignorant who aren't in the first category but who unwittingly support those folks, perhaps through not understanding what "democratic socialism" means.

 

sigh