Pujols undervalued

[Stradling]

"Clean" A-Rod

[NrM]

I think the Pujols deal will end up looking worse than Hamilton's.

He still has 6 years 165 million remaining. 

 

Hamilton in his 1st year as an angel put up a 1.9 fwar. Pujols had a 2.0 fwar last year.

 

I think Pujols has maybe 1 decent season left in him before he starts hurting the team.

[UndertheHalo]

again, how do some of you guys "know" what the Angels invest in their development system and how it compares to other clubs in baseball ?  We know they haven't played in the international arena but how do we know whats going on domestically.  Its just hard to believe that the organization is drawing the line on scouts and minor league coaches.  We have the same number of minor league affiliates as everyone else.  How much can that stuff really cost ? I mean theres dudes on here that analyze the shit out of baseball for free.  I cant imagine having scouting ability similar to other teams in terms of man power is really a money issue.  It seems to me that in terms of infrastructure and player acquisition the Angels problems are more about people who suck at their jobs then lack of resources.

 

I admit though, i'm really not knowledgable about this stuff.  there is almost no information about it specifically out there (that ive been able to look up anyway).  This is why i'm really interested in how some of you come up with this idea that they don't invest in development and acquisition.  Where do we get this information ?

Edited February 13, 2016 by UndertheHalo

[AngelsLakersFan]

Check back in 2017.

 

Im sure a lot of fans will do exactly that.

[AngelsLakersFan]

I agree with everyone who says the team isn't going all in this year. But I don't think that's as terrible as everyone else.

This team has been going "all in" basically since Vlad was signed. That's more than a decade of expecting to compete for a WS.

But let's say we signed a big time LF. We're way over the luxury tax, we still have a hole at 3b, 2b and a shallow (if not bad) bullpen. We also lose a 1st round pick.

We don't have anything to improve at the deadline. Let's say we win 92 games. We're in the playoffs as a division winner or a wildcard and the team still gets eaten alive because it has no ace and a shallow bullpen.

Next year we have to go all in we were so close. We just need 2 BP arms, a SP, a 3B and a 2B but we have some money coming off the books next season. So let's plug one or two of those holes. We're over the tax again. The team loses a little ground as Pujols declines further. We are in a playoff fight maybe we make it maybe we don't.

Now we're into our third off season and we're at the tax threshold. Now some of the young guys from the 2015-16 off season are either hitting FA or getting really expensive. We can't go over over the luxury tax because there is a penalty for being over the tax 3 years in a row. We're close but don't have a farm system and literally can't spend money to improve without incurring penalty.

My point is that unless we win a WS and even if we do there is always room for immediate improvement. And we as fans won't be satisfied. This organization hasn't taken a moment to breath in a decade and it's not healthy and it's been on a full sprint for the last 5. Despite this it keeps losing ground. Let's just take a season, regroup and get back to it again soon. We had a really good run. Not many teams can say they've competed for a decade and went all in for the last 5 of those 12 seasons.

 

I agree that at some point we will have to take a step back, but this season is not doing that. Nothing we have done this offseason dramatically improves our organizational standing long term.

 

What we did do is trade organizational assets for shorter term present assets. If we had signed some players this offseason it would have improved our chances over the next few years and had very minimal impact on the organizations long term health. In fact, as Doc points out, we could've spent money to fill holes rather than trading Newcomb, Ellis, and Gott. I'm not sure how you could think that trading those three guys improves the organization long term.

[Ohtaniland]

"Clean" A-Rod

Do you really think that he was dirty last season? He was probably tested everyday. It must be tough for you to see A-Rod play well and injury free at 39 years of age.

[Stradling]

Why would it be tough? I like A-Rod but to assume he's clean is a pretty big assumption.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Stradling

[Stradling]

Also since you are implying a comparison between A-Rod and Albert you should compare 2012, 2013, 2014 while you are comparing 2015.

[Inside Pitch]

I wonder about the plantar fasciitis, and how it impacts someone with such a pronounced crouch at the plate.

Did the surgery truly heal it once and for all?

Or will the effects always be there?

 

Tim Salmon......   he had a pretty pronounced crouch too..   He didn't fare all that well when he dealt with it.   

 

Do you really think that he was dirty last season? He was probably tested everyday. It must be tough for you to see A-Rod play well and injury free at 39 years of age.

 

Makes you wonder what AP might do if he was ever pain free again.   Or maybe it doesn't because that would require you to look at him objectively.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Inside Pitch

[UndertheHalo]

since we're discussing Arod.  I dont think its beyond the realm of possibility that Albert hasn't played his best year as an Angel.  Arod is a good example, and there are plenty of other examples of guys that have big bounce back years after being down for a while.  Not getting into if they're on something or not because I honestly don't give a shit.  If Albert finds some magic potion that makes him safely hit .300 and 35 home runs without getting caught....shoot that shit up mang.  

Edited February 13, 2016 by UndertheHalo

[JarsOfClay]

Do you really think that he was dirty last season? He was probably tested everyday. It must be tough for you to see A-Rod play well and injury free at 39 years of age.

 

Arod admitted he was using for several years as far back when playing with the rangers.  He never failed a single test.  He's obviously found some loophole to be able to use roids without getting caught.  

 

I dont know if he was clean or not, but  it's pretty absurd to think there's no possibility of him using roids.  He needed roids when he was 27 but he doesn't need them when he's 39.  ya ok..

[UndertheHalo]

if he was using, it wasn't steroids.  It was HGH.  Just to be clear.

[Stradling]

Sure ok. Arte is "cash strapped" by choice. Arte was spending over $100 million in payroll while getting $50 million in TV revenue. He's now getting $147 million and is spending an extra $40 million annually. As far as your opinion of how people will treat Albert you are projecting your beliefs. We boo Hamilton and Tex. Albert will be respected.

[QuinlansMinion]

Sure ok. Arte is "cash strapped" by choice. Arte was spending over $100 million in payroll while getting $50 million in TV revenue. He's now getting $147 million and is spending an extra $40 million annually. As far as your opinion of how people will treat Albert you are projecting your beliefs. We boo Hamilton and Tex. Albert will be respected.

No point in arguing this but I disagree.  We dont respect Mo Vaughn, at least most people dont.  Albert seems to be on a track to only get worse, his average is consistently terrible and his approach at the plate basically makes him a poor mans Adam Dunn.  Apparently he knows hes finished and is trying to jack as many homers as he can before he retires.  This doesnt look like a playoff team for the next 2 years at least, by then who knows if Albert will even be able to make it to 1st base?  He most likely retires before his contract is up due to his age, and some people will commend him for that.  But when its all said and done, he will have 1 all star appearance and one division title in about 8-10 years of playing time, to go along with the 200 million or so that he swindled from us.  I dont think many people will respect him for that.  

[UndertheHalo]

I think you are over stating how "bad" he's been with us QM.  He's been solidly above average.  I get thats not satisfactory to you for the money.  But its also definitely not bad.

[Stradling]

Swindled. He said yes to a contract he was offered. He's gone out and played even when hurt. Is he what we hoped for, no obviously. But it's not from a lack of effort and more due to the fact that he's aging and injury. That's my opinion I understand some people will make him a villain, it's just silly in my opinion. I will completely agree with you that his approach has been awful, I don't agree it's simply to chase home runs until he retires. It's been said before and it applies here, the athlete is the last to know.

[Docwaukee]

Swindled. He said yes to a contract he was offered. He's gone out and played even when hurt. Is he what we hoped for, no obviously. But it's not from a lack of effort and more due to the fact that he's aging and injury. That's my opinion I understand some people will make him a villain, it's just silly in my opinion. I will completely agree with you that his approach has been awful, I don't agree it's simply to chase home runs until he retires. It's been said before and it applies here, the athlete is the last to know.

 

i agree that it's not Albert's fault for the amount of money he makes.  He's certainly making the effort.  

 

I don't think he's chasing hrs for the sake of his numbers.  But I do think he's sacrificing other parts of his game to hit home runs.  I think he's under the impression he needs to provide them from the middle of the order because he's the run producer.  He's just swinging way too often.  

 

On top of that, he'd probably be better off running on his arms.  

 

The most disappointing thing about Albert as a halos has been that a HOF hitter, a truly gifted batting champion, has morphed into a completely different player.  

 

We'd all be so much happier if he were a 50 double, 25hr, .290 hitter with a .370obp.  We got to see that for about 120 games in 2012 after his slow start.  He slashed .310/.373/.581/.953 with 46bb and 59k in 477ab.  

 

Cron and Calhoun need to bat behind him and produce.  Take away some of the perception he has that he's the only guy producing after Trout.  Maybe then he'll ease up and just get on base.  

 

It's pretty much a pipe dream, but I do have this feeling that Albert can be a different hitter if he wants to and that his current production isn't as much because of decline as it is choice.  

[70runner]

There's something we just don't know about Albert and probably never will.

 

Perhaps the year on his actual birth certificate? 

 

Doc, I salute your optimism, however, his age (whatever it is), weight, health, and evolving bad habits at the plate collectively suggest (to me) a resurgence at the plate is unlikely.  He hit some HRs, but was largely ineffective with RISP, not an especially good attribute for a cleanup hitter.  

 

Was hoping the Angels would pick up an alternative for the spot behind Trout.  Perhaps moving him down the lineup would ease the pressure, give him an opportunity for better choices, tho it could be argued Scioscia wouldn't move him regardless.

[Ohtaniland]

Swindled. He said yes to a contract he was offered. He's gone out and played even when hurt. Is he what we hoped for, no obviously. But it's not from a lack of effort and more due to the fact that he's aging and injury. That's my opinion I understand some people will make him a villain, it's just silly in my opinion. I will completely agree with you that his approach has been awful, I don't agree it's simply to chase home runs until he retires. It's been said before and it applies here, the athlete is the last to know.

Swindler or villain is not a good description. Disappointing is more accurate. Arte signed Albert for the sole purpose of bringing the organization to a higher level. He signed a 10 year contract that his grandiose ego fully thought that he deserved. He left the organization that took care of his entire career so I'm not a big believer in employee loyalty in professional sports. Albert was after a money grab even though he knew that his skill level was already fading and would suffer even more because he could no longer depend on supplements that weren't illegal or banned by the league early in his career. He did nothing illegal but you could see that he was super human for a long stretch. His health today is a testament to whatever he was taking in his early career. Albert was suppose to give Angels fans a chance to stick their chest out. We got Albert Freaken Pujols. Playoffs and championships was the talk around here when we signed him. I don't think that Albert can deliver on the hype that came with him. So yes disappointment is the accurate description.

[Stradling]

Swindler or villain is not a good description. Disappointing is more accurate. Arte signed Albert for the sole purpose of bringing the organization to a higher level. He signed a 10 year contract that his grandiose ego fully thought that he deserved. He left the organization that took care of his entire career so I'm not a big believer in employee loyalty in professional sports. Albert was after a money grab even though he knew that his skill level was already fading and would suffer even more because he could no longer depend on supplements that weren't illegal or banned by the league early in his career. He did nothing illegal but you could see that he was super human for a long stretch. His health today is a testament to whatever he was taking in his early career. Albert was suppose to give Angels fans a chance to stick their chest out. We got Albert Freaken Pujols. Playoffs and championships was the talk around here when we signed him. I don't think that Albert can deliver on the hype that came with him. So yes disappointment is the accurate description.

You're disappointed but you treat him like either he personally harmed you, or did something to offend you deeply. I find it funny that you talk all the time about it being a team game but you constantly blame Albert for not bringing the team a championship. You're jealous and it's ugly. You're totally incapable of being objective as it relates to Albert, it's pathetic. Once again he accepted a contract he was offered. Arte's ego made him go after Albert.

[tdawg87]

Pujols should have told Arte he would accept a 5 year deal worth 12 million a year because he knew he would break down and hurt the team.

Obviously.

[Stradling]

Last thing he wants is to have a big ego.

[ten ocho recon scout]

And by spending money I am not talking big money free agents I'm talking about solid free agents.

this. Not hetting one of the big guys was hugely disappointing. Bot getting anyone really, when we have holes and no farm help, is inexcusable.

Ive always been a huge arte supporter, but his new budget, being that money doesnt appear (at least on the surface) an issue,when we have serious problems, is taking a lot of the luster off of how i see him as an owner.

[Ohtaniland]

this. Not hetting one of the big guys was hugely disappointing. Bot getting anyone really, when we have holes and no farm help, is inexcusable.

Ive always been a huge arte supporter, but his new budget, being that money doesnt appear (at least on the surface) an issue,when we have serious problems, is taking a lot of the luster off of how i see him as an owner.

It's inexcusable that Arte won't raise his budget to $200M to satisfy the insatiable appetite of the "win now" fans. Shame on that cheap bastard.

[Docwaukee]

It's inexcusable that Arte won't raise his budget to $200M to satisfy the insatiable appetite of the "win now" fans. Shame on that cheap bastard.

yeah. instead, let's sell off every last piece of our farm system for some upgrades to the current team.  

 

you were right about the fact that Arte wasn't going to spend any money.  Yet the more you post it makes me realize that you are right for the wrong reasons.  

 

Arte is still keeping the team in win now mode.   His product isn't constructed to have the best chance to win but the best chance to draw fans.  Instead of using money, he's using players in the form of future talent to fulfill that goal.  

 

It's inexcusable that Arte has used every last bit of org currency to keep the team competitive without any mind for the future.