Pujols undervalued

[Stradling]

Ok Arte is dense. Oh and you were advocating for Upton or Heyward or Gordon or Cespedes. Eppler gets here and makes deals for Simmons, Escobar, Pennington, Soto and Albuquerque. You can't go out and sign mega deals until some of the overpaid underperforming trash is taken out first. What you're asking for is the equivalent of you having one of your longtime great performing burger makers slowing down so now you have to hire another burger maker to pick up the slack. If everybody just does their job we should be good to go.

I agree everyone doing their job, including the owner. You and your "trash", complete nonsense. I'll let Weaver know he's trash. Also we will tell Albert he's trash because some Expos fan said so.

[tdawg87]

What does that have to do with what I said? Did you ignore that Weaver and Wilson's contracts are coming off the books next year? Or that Hamilton's contract is off the books the following year?

 

That "100 million" as you put it (it's only 79.5 million in terms of tax space) won't be relevant anymore. Don't cry poor for a billionaire who continues to make money off this team despite all that "dead money" he's put into it.

[Ohtaniland]

What does that have to do with what I said? Did you ignore that Weaver and Wilson's contracts are coming off the books next year? Or that Hamilton's contract is off the books the following year?

That "100 million" as you put it (it's only 79.5 million in terms of tax space) won't be relevant anymore. Don't cry poor for a billionaire who continues to make money off this team despite all that "dead money" he's put into it.

Arte has a set budget so what's done is done. Check back in 2017.

[Stradling]

He also ignored that the free agent class was great this year and lousy next year. So a less talented player will demand more next off season.

[Stradling]

Arte has a set budget so what's done is done. Check back in 2017.

See you in 2017 Claude.

[Ohtaniland]

He also ignored that the free agent class was great this year and lousy next year. So a less talented player will demand more next off season.

Oh well bad timing. It's a very tight budget year. Arte went "all in" for 2012 - 2016 (got no playoff wins) and all the spoiled fans want more.

[Ohtaniland]

See you in 2017 Claude.

Nope I'm good to go for 2016.

[Stradling]

Um this is 2016, he absolutely did not go all in this year. And it's not more it's we want a complete team. We want a team that is pot committed to not fold. We want a team that isn't relying on bounce back seasons from our left fielders and potential 7th inning guy.

[Ohtaniland]

Um this is 2016, he absolutely did not go all in this year. And it's not more it's we want a complete team. We want a team that is pot committed to not fold. We want a team that isn't relying on bounce back seasons from our left fielders and potential 7th inning guy.

Strad he has a league top 7 budget in 2016 and has about $4M left to spend at the deadline. So yes he's "all in" more than 23 other MLB teams.

[Stradling]

So he's 7th in payroll and 2nd in annual tv contract. He's just about last in minor league budget. He has no debt. Remember Kendrys? He's the last foreign big splash, 11 years ago.

[Ohtaniland]

So he's 7th in payroll and 2nd in annual tv contract. He's just about last in minor league budget. He has no debt. Remember Kendrys? He's the last foreign big splash, 11 years ago.

It kinda sounds like we all just need to jump ship.

[Docwaukee]

Strad he has a league top 7 budget in 2016 and has about $4M left to spend at the deadline. So yes he's "all in" more than 23 other MLB teams.

You are being duped.  

 

These aren't exact numbers, but they are estimated for effect.  

 

Let's say we spend 160mil on major league payroll and lets say we spend 30mil on player development and scouting.  

 

But a small market team with a 130mil payroll spends 50mil on player development. 

 

Arte is all about sizzle.  

 

He's making you think he's all in, but it's slight of hand.  

 

Again, it's certainly his prerogative, but if you think he's maxed out or learned some sort of lesson then you've bought what he's selling.  

 

I'd like to see the combined budgets of both the major league salaries and that of player development for all major league teams.  I think you'd be very surprised.  

 

Arte plays off what the fans can see.  It's his marketing genius background at work.  

 

The things that keep franchises sustainable for the long term don't have enough visibility to put fans in the seats for the short term.  

 

In Arte's world, when you have Mike Trout, are you really going to bring more fans to the park by having Dexter Fowler in LF as opposed to nava and gentry?  Even if you do on the margins, is it worth the 10mil coming directly out of your own pocket?  

[Ohtaniland]

You are being duped.

These aren't exact numbers, but they are estimated for effect.

Let's say we spend 160mil on major league payroll and lets say we spend 30mil on player development and scouting.

But a small market team with a 130mil payroll spends 50mil on player development.

Arte is all about sizzle.

He's making you think he's all in, but it's slight of hand.

Again, it's certainly his prerogative, but if you think he's maxed out or learned some sort of lesson then you've bought what he's selling.

I'd like to see the combined budgets of both the major league salaries and that of player development for all major league teams. I think you'd be very surprised.

Arte plays off what the fans can see. It's his marketing genius background at work.

The things that keep franchises sustainable for the long term don't have enough visibility to put fans in the seats for the short term.

In Arte's world, when you have Mike Trout, are you really going to bring more fans to the park by having Dexter Fowler in LF as opposed to nava and gentry? Even if you do on the margins, is it worth the 10mil coming directly out of your own pocket?

Doc I hear you but think about how many times Arte has invested in high dollar free agents only to be disappointed year after year. I really think he's doing the right thing by setting a budget and letting his GM figure it out. I also think that 3 million fans will be in attendance because of Mike Trout. He's the attraction sorta like Mickey Mouse on the other side of the freeway.

[Stradling]

Doc I hear you but think about how many times Arte has invested in high dollar free agents only to be disappointed year after year. I really think he's doing the right thing by setting a budget and letting his GM figure it out. I also think that 3 million fans will be in attendance because of Mike Trout. He's the attraction sorta like Mickey Mouse on the other side of the freeway.

Twice. He's invested in high priced free agents twice.

[Erstad Grit]

Twice. He's invested in high priced free agents twice.

 

 CJ Wilson , Pujols, and Hamilton

[Stradling]

CJ wasn't really that big of a contract. He got the going rate for a pitcher of his ability at that time.

[Erstad Grit]

CJ wasn't really that big of a contract. He got the going rate for a pitcher of his ability at that time.

 

He was paid like a top 10 SP. 

[Docwaukee]

Doc I hear you but think about how many times Arte has invested in high dollar free agents only to be disappointed year after year. I really think he's doing the right thing by setting a budget and letting his GM figure it out. I also think that 3 million fans will be in attendance because of Mike Trout. He's the attraction sorta like Mickey Mouse on the other side of the freeway.

Wilson has produced near what he's been paid.  Pujols has so far, but the high dollar portion of his contract is just kicking in and that is gonna be a disaster.  Hamilton is the true mess and Arte created it that mess.  Twice.  Once by signing him and then again by trading him and eating 60+mil.  He didn't have to do that.  

 

But here's the thing.  No one is asking him to spend a quarter bill on upgrades.  Spending 20mil over two years gets you Fowler.  Spending 50mil over 4 years would get you Desmond.  Spending 40mil over 3 years gets you Gallardo.  Spending 30 mil over 3 years gets you Span.  Spending 2/20 gets you Howie.  3/37.5 for Murphy.  So on and so forth.   So many players would have helped this team.  Players that wouldn't have broken the bank.  Players that would be off the payroll in 2-4 years.  

 

He's not letting the GM figure it out.  He's setting the budget and telling the gm to use the teams assets to improve for 2016-2020.  

 

He's still involved.  He's still doing it wrong.  But now we don't have the assets to complete the team.  So we are caught in the middle.  

 

You are right for the wrong reasons.  What is happening isn't what you think it is.  It's the same as it's ever been.  When some money gets freed up next year and the year after, he's not going to spend it on development, he's gonna spend it on major league payroll.  If any players in the minors develop and show promise, they will be used to improve the major league club for now and not the future.  

 

Let's say for a second that you are right and that he has turned over a new leaf.  What's the point.  It's too little too late anyway.  He's put this franchise in a position to where 2020 doesn't matter.  Being able to pull off what you are talking about would be a story.  Not something even remotely realistic.  

 

Even if they pull it off and I am wrong (which I want to be), it will be because of a great deal of luck.  There, realistically, just isn't a way that Eppler and his team are that much better at doing what they do than the rest of those in all of baseball.  

[NrM]

Oh well bad timing. It's a very tight budget year. Arte went "all in" for 2012 - 2016 (got no playoff wins) and all the spoiled fans want more.

 

I would've been perfectly satisfied with this offseason if they hadn't traded Newcomb.

It's like the GM is going in one direction while the owner is going in another.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Poozy

[Angel Oracle]

Ok Arte is dense. Oh and you were advocating for Upton or Heyward or Gordon or Cespedes. Eppler gets here and makes deals for Simmons, Escobar, Pennington, Soto and Albuquerque. You can't go out and sign mega deals until some of the overpaid underperforming trash is taken out first. What you're asking for is the equivalent of you having one of your longtime great performing burger makers slowing down so now you have to hire another burger maker to pick up the slack. If everybody just does their job we should be good to go.

No one is denying that some improvements were made (SS, catching depth, and bench depth). The issue was in not upgrading at least one of LF, 2B, or the pen.

Al Al is not a bullpen upgrade, not off of how he pitched in 2015.

Nava/Gentry was not a true upgrade in LF, just one based on the worst LF in 2015 being here.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Angel Oracle

[eaterfan]

I agree with everyone who says the team isn't going all in this year. But I don't think that's as terrible as everyone else.

This team has been going "all in" basically since Vlad was signed. That's more than a decade of expecting to compete for a WS.

But let's say we signed a big time LF. We're way over the luxury tax, we still have a hole at 3b, 2b and a shallow (if not bad) bullpen. We also lose a 1st round pick.

We don't have anything to improve at the deadline. Let's say we win 92 games. We're in the playoffs as a division winner or a wildcard and the team still gets eaten alive because it has no ace and a shallow bullpen.

Next year we have to go all in we were so close. We just need 2 BP arms, a SP, a 3B and a 2B but we have some money coming off the books next season. So let's plug one or two of those holes. We're over the tax again. The team loses a little ground as Pujols declines further. We are in a playoff fight maybe we make it maybe we don't.

Now we're into our third off season and we're at the tax threshold. Now some of the young guys from the 2015-16 off season are either hitting FA or getting really expensive. We can't go over over the luxury tax because there is a penalty for being over the tax 3 years in a row. We're close but don't have a farm system and literally can't spend money to improve without incurring penalty.

My point is that unless we win a WS and even if we do there is always room for immediate improvement. And we as fans won't be satisfied. This organization hasn't taken a moment to breath in a decade and it's not healthy and it's been on a full sprint for the last 5. Despite this it keeps losing ground. Let's just take a season, regroup and get back to it again soon. We had a really good run. Not many teams can say they've competed for a decade and went all in for the last 5 of those 12 seasons.

[Ohtaniland]

No one is denying that some improvements were made (SS, catching depth, and bench depth). The issue was in not upgrading at least one of LF, 2B, or the pen.

Al Al is not a bullpen upgrade, not off of how he pitched in 2015.

Nava/Gentry was not a true upgrade in LF, just one based on the worst LF in 2015 being here.

Rome wasn't built in a day. Why can't we just give Eppler the same 3-4 years that Dipoto had to put his own plan into place. The Nava's and Gentry's are just temporary placeholders until financial flexibility is restored. If people are worried about losing Trout they need to understand that Trout is not worried about the fans or the Angels. Trout is going to make his lifetime choices based on his needs at the time. That's what Albert did.

[wopphil]

In Arte's defense, Pujols has declined faster than anyone could have expected. Plenty of great hitters remain great well into their late 30s.

[Ohtaniland]

In Arte's defense, Pujols has declined faster than anyone could have expected. Plenty of great hitters remain great well into their late 30s.

Not that I'm a fan of him personally but you can't help but be impressed with a clean 39 year old A-Rod putting up a .842ops and 131ops+ after a year away from baseball. That's why I'm so puzzled about why Albert has declined so fast. There's something we just don't know about Albert and probably never will.

[Angel Oracle]

I wonder about the plantar fasciitis, and how it impacts someone with such a pronounced crouch at the plate.

Did the surgery truly heal it once and for all?

Or will the effects always be there?

Edited February 13, 2016 by Angel Oracle