Pujols undervalued

[Stradling]

No Stradling, our team is financially disfunctional. Not financially poor but the money spent doesn't match the talent level on the field. The farm is also a mess which means the current and short term future is shaky to say the least. Heyward has a chance to win now, next season and the season after that.

Well Arte has no one to blame but himself for the farm system and the talent not matching the payroll. Not only that but if he truly cared about winning he could take the Dodger approach, but not to that extreme. He could bankroll the major league team while the minor leagues develop. Instead we traded our only legit prospect (I don't hate the trade like some) and spent very little in a strong free agent class.

[Docwaukee]

We are a large market team with under 100mil committed to 2018.  That doesn't even put us in the top 10, but we have the 5th highest team revenue in all of baseball.  We are one of 6 mlb teams to have zero debt.  We have the 8th highest franchise value at 1.3 billion.  

 

Our financial position isn't nearly as dire as people make it out to be.  Taking on some additional payroll over the next 3-4 years would barely phase us financially.  Granted, making a 200mil commitment to someone like Heyward could be hurtful, but taking on 2 years of fowler, 4 years of Desmond and a couple of 2 or 3 year contracts for some other guys wouldn't be an issue.  

 

We have some dead weight, but it's expiring soon.  I think people have lost sight of how much money this franchise really has.  

 

The question becomes, would you rather have Simmons, or would you rather spend on Desmond at 4/50 and have him, Newcomb, Ellis, and whatever prospects you could get for Aybar.  

[Angel Oracle]

I love having Simmons here, and I imagine more and more will do so as well as the season progresses.

 

BUT, Arte fell flat in following up on that move to improve LF and the bullpen. 

[Angelsjunky]

Gary Gaetti

 

Yeah, Gaetti was disappointing but we're talking completely different leagues of player and disappointment. Pujols was looking like one of the greatest of all time, joining Gehrig and Foxx among the very best first basemen in baseball history. 2011 was a big step down from 2010, but the general view was that he started slow due to contract issues and would bounce back in 2012, as an Angel.

 

Gaetti, on the other hand, was a typical 80s/early 90s Angels signing - a former star signed when he was no longer very good. He was already clearly in decline, with his two previous years before becoming an Angel being mediocre to poor.

 

It is really more similar to Vaughn, and actually quite a bit worse. It will likely go down as one of the worst free agent contracts in the history of MLB.

[Angel Oracle]

Pujols' and Hackilton's contracts make Nibs' contract pale in comparison.

$365 million for one rock solid season, and otherwise mediocre to decent seasons with Pujols' prospects for future solid seasons very sketchy

Edited February 12, 2016 by Angel Oracle

[AngelsLakersFan]

We are a large market team with under 100mil committed to 2018.  That doesn't even put us in the top 10, but we have the 5th highest team revenue in all of baseball.  We are one of 6 mlb teams to have zero debt.  We have the 8th highest franchise value at 1.3 billion.  

 

Our financial position isn't nearly as dire as people make it out to be.  Taking on some additional payroll over the next 3-4 years would barely phase us financially.  Granted, making a 200mil commitment to someone like Heyward could be hurtful, but taking on 2 years of fowler, 4 years of Desmond and a couple of 2 or 3 year contracts for some other guys wouldn't be an issue.  

 

We have some dead weight, but it's expiring soon.  I think people have lost sight of how much money this franchise really has.  

 

The question becomes, would you rather have Simmons, or would you rather spend on Desmond at 4/50 and have him, Newcomb, Ellis, and whatever prospects you could get for Aybar.  

 

This is another thing that hasn't been mentioned all that much around here. Despite the narrative that CALZONE keeps pushing, the Angels are not in as bad a financial position as one might think. Pujols is a long term cost, but he has been productive and worth the money he's been paid up to this point. Wilson and Weaver were both worth their contracts and they are expiring soon. Hamilton was the only true waste, and he'll be off the books in a couple of years.

 

If you take all of our large contracts together we have done fine. Long term we have dead money in the Pujols deal, but every team has dead money on the books somewhere and inflation in the game is making it less of a burden. Revenue is way up across the league - it is entirely possible that the Angels have never been in better financial shape then they are right now.

 

The lack of spending this offseason has nothing to do with long term financial trouble, or Arte running out of money it is simply because Moreno does not want to. 

[Ohtaniland]

This is another thing that hasn't been mentioned all that much around here. Despite the narrative that CALZONE keeps pushing, the Angels are not in as bad a financial position as one might think. Pujols is a long term cost, but he has been productive and worth the money he's been paid up to this point. Wilson and Weaver were both worth their contracts and they are expiring soon. Hamilton was the only true waste, and he'll be off the books in a couple of years.

If you take all of our large contracts together we have done fine. Long term we have dead money in the Pujols deal, but every team has dead money on the books somewhere and inflation in the game is making it less of a burden. Revenue is way up across the league - it is entirely possible that the Angels have never been in better financial shape then they are right now.

The lack of spending this offseason has nothing to do with long term financial trouble, or Arte running out of money it is simply because Moreno does not want to.

I never said that Angels were poor. I never said that the Angels didn't have the money to go out and buy another high dollar free agent. I said that they're already spending way too much money for an underperforming team. Get real people, they've consistently spent tons of money and thay can't even qualify for the second wild card. It's truly pathetic that we can't even be the 5th best team in the league. Yep Arte needs to keep spending money.....laughable.

[Stradling]

He needs to fill holes with money if you don't invest in your farm system

[Stradling]

And by spending money I am not talking big money free agents I'm talking about solid free agents.

[AngelsLakersFan]

I never said that Angels were poor. I never said that the Angels didn't have the money to go out and buy another high dollar free agent. I said that they're already spending way too much money for an underperforming team. Get real people, they've consistently spent tons of money and thay can't even qualify for the second wild card. It's truly pathetic that we can't even be the 5th best team in the league. Yep Arte needs to keep spending money.....laughable.

 

The point is that the money Moreno has spent hasn't been the problem. The problem is the organization as a whole. The money has contributed to winning, even though it has not contributed at the level it should have or that we needed it to. If we had simply spent at the level of a poor or mid market team we would be worse, albeit in a better financial position.

[Ohtaniland]

The point is that the money Moreno has spent hasn't been the problem. The problem is the organization as a whole. The money has contributed to winning, even though it has not contributed at the level it should have or that we needed it to. If we had simply spent at the level of a poor or mid market team we would be worse, albeit in a better financial position.

Well my narrative all along was that Arte spent spent spent and the players failed failed failed. Could you imagine being Arte with high expectations and being on the receiving end of Pujols and his planters faciitis in both feet, bum knees, hamstrings, groin cyst, slumps and consistent ground balls to 3rd? Then Hamilton comes in and shits the bed. Yeah Arte must be motivated to spend more.

[Stradling]

Well my narrative all along was that Arte spent spent spent and the players failed failed failed. Could you imagine being Arte with high expectations and being on the receiving end of Pujols and his planters faciitis in both feet, bum knees, hamstrings, groin cyst, slumps and consistent ground balls to 3rd? Then Hamilton comes in and shits the bed. Yeah Arte must be motivated to spend more.

Could you imagine being a fan of a team where the owner spent like that, ignored the farm system and the Dominican Republic and Asia, then basically gave up when they were one game away from the playoffs? It sucks.

[tdawg87]

Claude is fine with being mediocre as long as the payroll is low.

[Ohtaniland]

Claude is fine with being mediocre as long as the payroll is low.

The payroll is low? Seriously?

[AngelsLakersFan]

The payroll is low? Seriously?

 

No, but if it was, you'd be fine!

[Ohtaniland]

Could you imagine being a fan of a team where the owner spent like that, ignored the farm system and the Dominican Republic and Asia, then basically gave up when they were one game away from the playoffs? It sucks.

The highly paid players on our roster had no business chasing the Astros last season. I'm sure Arte was impressed by Houston's return for their investment while he was getting fleeced by his highly paid underperformers.

[Angel Oracle]

Strad spelled it out well.    There's nothing wrong with strategic FA signings mixed with spending to build a solid farm to keep the team solid current times and long term.

 

Don't know what Arte's problem is with that, but the longer he insists on not spending on building a solid farm AND not spending to keep the MLB team solid,  the closer he gets to being a mediocre franchise by 3-4 years from now with little hope of reversing that. 

[Stradling]

The highly paid players on our roster had no business chasing the Astros last season. I'm sure Arte was impressed by Houston's return for their investment while he was getting fleeced by his highly paid underperformers.

I'm sure Arte was impressed with the Astros being the laughing stock of baseball the last decade. Claude you're not this sense, I know you can't possibly be. You act like the Astros happened in a vacuum. They were good because of how bad they'd been. Let's talk about return on investment. Arte had a high payroll before he got the $2.5 billion tv contract. Now that he has it he's gun shy. He spent money on an aging star and a former drug addict, it was him, all him. So if he wants to be upset he can only be upset at himself. He certainly can't be upset at the fans who still support the team.

[Ohtaniland]

I'm sure Arte was impressed with the Astros being the laughing stock of baseball the last decade. Claude you're not this sense, I know you can't possibly be. You act like the Astros happened in a vacuum. They were good because of how bad they'd been. Let's talk about return on investment. Arte had a high payroll before he got the $2.5 billion tv contract. Now that he has it he's gun shy. He spent money on an aging star and a former drug addict, it was him, all him. So if he wants to be upset he can only be upset at himself. He certainly can't be upset at the fans who still support the team.

You act like signing a guy like Heyward was going to get us to a championship level. It wouldn't.

[tdawg87]

You act like signing a guy like Heyward was going to get us to a championship level. It wouldn't.

Maybe not, but bringing back Freese, signing Fowler or Span, and a reliever like Clippard would.

[Ohtaniland]

Maybe not, but bringing back Freese, signing Fowler or Span, and a reliever like Clippard would.

Arte probably figures that signing players this offseason is still going to be just a crutch because he knows that Hamilton, Pujols, Weaver and Wilson are still on the payroll. That's a lot of dead money.

[Stradling]

You are this dense. Didn't I say numerous times it's not about spending big it's about spending smart? As Tdawg says those smaller deals make us a ton better. Reminder, one game away from the playoffs last year.

[tdawg87]

Arte probably figures that signing players this offseason is still going to be just a crutch because he knows that Hamilton, Pujols, Weaver and Wilson are still on the payroll. That's a lot of dead money.

 

3 of those players come off the payroll within the next 2 years. That's about 53 million dollars.

 

Also, "dead money" implies the players aren't even playing for the team. Despite how much you want it to fit your narrative, only Hamilton counts as dead money. Every team has dead money.

[Ohtaniland]

You are this dense. Didn't I say numerous times it's not about spending big it's about spending smart? As Tdawg says those smaller deals make us a ton better. Reminder, one game away from the playoffs last year.

Ok Arte is dense. Oh and you were advocating for Upton or Heyward or Gordon or Cespedes. Eppler gets here and makes deals for Simmons, Escobar, Pennington, Soto and Albuquerque. You can't go out and sign mega deals until some of the overpaid underperforming trash is taken out first. What you're asking for is the equivalent of you having one of your longtime great performing burger makers slowing down so now you have to hire another burger maker to pick up the slack. If everybody just does their job we should be good to go.

[Ohtaniland]

3 of those players come off the payroll within the next 2 years. That's about 53 million dollars.

Also, "dead money" implies the players aren't even playing for the team. Despite how much you want it to fit your narrative, only Hamilton counts as dead money. Every team has dead money.

If you think having to spend $100M on those four players makes it easy for Arte to fill a complete 25 man roster you're delusional.