Trying to be competitive versus actually trying to win...

[AngelsLakersFan]

I believe all teams will eventually get below the luxury tax. Teams that have relied on being subsidized by other teams will now have to sink or swim. The owners have figured out that the steroid era built up the luxury tax and that era is over. The super talent pool is shrinking as baseball is returning back to realistic human numbers so the salaries will now need to come down to earth. Baseball owners are now going to be more cautious and conservative about long term deals.

 

The economic aspects of the game are separate from the on the field aspects. The steroid era did not drive up salaries, salaries are a reflection of the economic state of the game, the owners competitive nature and the direct tie between winning and a team's bottom line. 

[Stradling]

I believe all teams will eventually get below the luxury tax. Teams that have relied on being subsidized by other teams will now have to sink or swim. The owners have figured out that the steroid era built up the luxury tax and that era is over. The super talent pool is shrinking as baseball is returning back to realistic human numbers so the salaries will now need to come down to earth. Baseball owners are now going to be more cautious and conservative about long term deals.

You realize you posted this weeks after David Price, a pitcher, got $217 million, Zach Greinke, a pitcher, got $207 million, Johnny Cueto got $130 million and Jason Heyward (the non steroid guy) got $184 million that includes a $20 million signing bonus and an opt out after 3 years. So I'm thinking your take that "owners have figured it out" is probably you projecting your beliefs into a situation much more so than it being the reality of the situation.

[Dick B Back]

I'm no money expert but I would imagine the AW revenue stream would take a hit if Strad and CALZONE weren't allowed to post to each other.

[Stradling]

It's all in good fun. He enjoys being wrong and told he's wrong.

[greginpsca]

Took just 14 posts for someone to bring up 2002, as if it means absolutely anything today.

 

Angels fans are ****ing ridiculous.

based on the Op question, it is quite appropriate.. You had an organization that hadn't been to the playoffs in at least 15 years putting together spare parts and castoffs. And look what happened. So when you say Angels fans are ****ing ridiculous, you should look into the mirror once in awhile to see what ridiculous really looks like!

[Ohtaniland]

I'm no money expert but I would imagine the AW revenue stream would take a hit if Strad and CALZONE weren't allowed to post to each other.

I have no issues with Strad. I'm a big fan of In-n-Out burgers so we're good.

[Stradling]

And I've ALWAYS had good interactions with the Santa Fe Springs Civil Engineers.

[eligrba]

Why begin with the since the Hamilton timeline. Let's rewind to the day we hired Jerry Dipoto. We have changed 96% of the roster since then and we still have zero playoff wins. The team is completely rebuilt.

2011 Angels lineup

Mathis C

Trumbo 1B

Kendrick 2B

Aybar SS

Callaspo 3B

Wells LF

Bourjos CF

Hunter RF

Abreu DH

Morales DL

Weaver SP

Santana SP

Kazmir SP

Haren SP

Pinero SP

K-Rod Closer

 

 

Interesting perspective on the last 4 yrs.

 

How did each player leave the Angels and who were their replacement?

 

Mathis free agent? replaced via trade and free agent signing

Trumbo traded for Skaggs and Santiago replaced by Pujols

Kendrick traded for Heaney replaced via dumpster diving

Aybar traded for and replaced by Simmons

Callaspo traded for Green (DFA) replaced via trade by Freese and ???

Wells traded for ??? replaced via free agency (Hamilton of shit) and trade (Joyce)

Bourjous traded for Freese/Salas replaced by Mike fricken Trout (farm)

Hunter left as free agent replaced by Calhoun (farm)

Abreu DFA replaced by ???

Morales left as free agent

Weaver-still an Angel

Santana left as free agent replaced by farm/trade**

Kazmir DFA replaced by farm/trade**

Haren traded for ???? or left as free agent ???? replaced by farm/trade**

Pinero ???? replaced by farm/trade**

K Rod left as free agent replaced by farm/trade/free agent

 

**CJ Wilson

 

What is interesting is that the current Angel pitching staff composition is primarily the result of the farm sytem and trades.  The only big free agent signing was CJ and we all have our own opinions about the value of his signing.

 

The current outfield is mostly comprised of the farm system replacements with a series of disasterous free agent decisions (letting Hunter walk and signing Hamilton of shit).

 

The current infield of the Angels moving into 2016 is mostly comprised of acquisitions through trades which is significant because the Angels did not have much to offer and any player of value involved in a trade created a gapping hole for the fuure.

 

It makes me wonder how many of the trades occurred because of biases toward veteran players.

[Ohtaniland]

The economic aspects of the game are separate from the on the field aspects. The steroid era did not drive up salaries, salaries are a reflection of the economic state of the game, the owners competitive nature and the direct tie between winning and a team's bottom line.

Baseball's popularity was at an all time low after the strike season and steroids were just what the doctor ordered to get the ratings back up. Selig conveniently ignored the facts because baseball had record attendance and TV revenue reached all time levels. The players union quickly jumped in on the new revenue stream and record contracts have resulted ever since. MLB postponed its own funeral by allowing steroids to change the game for its entertainment value. Make no mistake about it steroids saved the game and set the course for the TV contacts, player contracts and ticket prices we see today.

[Stradling]

I wonder the percentage of ticket price increase the game has seen in the last ten years. It doesn't seem ridiculous for the Angels but I could be wrong.

[Ohtaniland]

Interesting perspective on the last 4 yrs.

How did each player leave the Angels and who were their replacement?

Mathis free agent? replaced via trade and free agent signing

Trumbo traded for Skaggs and Santiago replaced by Pujols

Kendrick traded for Heaney replaced via dumpster diving

Aybar traded for and replaced by Simmons

Callaspo traded for Green (DFA) replaced via trade by Freese and ???

Wells traded for ??? replaced via free agency (Hamilton of shit) and trade (Joyce)

Bourjous traded for Freese/Salas replaced by Mike fricken Trout (farm)

Hunter left as free agent replaced by Calhoun (farm)

Abreu DFA replaced by ???

Morales left as free agent

Weaver-still an Angel

Santana left as free agent replaced by farm/trade**

Kazmir DFA replaced by farm/trade**

Haren traded for ???? or left as free agent ???? replaced by farm/trade**

Pinero ???? replaced by farm/trade**

K Rod left as free agent replaced by farm/trade/free agent

**CJ Wilson

What is interesting is that the current Angel pitching staff composition is primarily the result of the farm sytem and trades. The only big free agent signing was CJ and we all have our own opinions about the value of his signing.

The current outfield is mostly comprised of the farm system replacements with a series of disasterous free agent decisions (letting Hunter walk and signing Hamilton of shit).

The current infield of the Angels moving into 2016 is mostly comprised of acquisitions through trades which is significant because the Angels did not have much to offer and any player of value involved in a trade created a gapping hole for the fuure.

It makes me wonder how many of the trades occurred because of biases toward veteran players.

I remember when Dipoto flew to Cleveland or someplace to tell Scioscia that Bobby Abreu was out and Mike Trout was in. I don't Scioscia was very happy about it at the time. I guess the point of my post is that a lot changes have been made through FA's, trading and drafting but we are right where we were when we started all of this madness. We have no farm, we have older overpaid players mixed in with some youth, some solid SP with a sucky bullpen.

[Ohtaniland]

I wonder the percentage of ticket price increase the game has seen in the last ten years. It doesn't seem ridiculous for the Angels but I could be wrong.

I actually think that Arte has been fair and square about the ticket pricing. But I wonder if he would adjust upwards later if he had signed a couple of big money FA's that put him over the luxury tax.

Edited December 27, 2015 by CALZONE

[Stradling]

I actually think that Arte has been fair and square about the ticket pricing. But I wonder if he would adjust upwards later if he had signed a couple of big money FA's that put him over the luxury tax.

I'd have no problem with that. We are really overstating going over the tax for one year. 17% on dollars over threshold is nothing. If you go for it and are over $20 million it costs $3.4 million. So if the luxury tax is at $189 million and they decide to spend $209 million it would cost $212.4 million. Oh and the tax is end of the year dollars. So if you sign a guy and the team is shit trade off guys like Street and Smith and what you can of CJ.

[itsKnoppUitsme]

I believe the 2002 team was just trying to be competitve. They had a $55 mil payroll, and a  mediocre starting pitching staff. The bullpen had Percival, and a bunch of clean peanuts[ Weber, Donnelley,etc.]    Spezio was the 1baseman, a journeyman if there ever was one. I can't think of any org at that time that would want to build a championship quality team with David Eckstein as the SS.  Just goes to show what can happen when guys play to their career average or better. Starting pitchers threw just good enough to get to the 5-6 innings. Rarely did opponents score after the 5-6 innings. That team played good enough defense, and had an offense primed for late innings comebacks.  I know that team was unique, but it shows how you don't have to be a big spender to win.

What a great team and FUN year that was! So many gritty Angel veterans that just willed that team to it's WS destiny and as the years roll by, further proof that SOSH was just lucky to be there, riding the coattails of that amazing team & coaching staff! Sadly that WS victory (which I thought that it would never happen in my lifetime) caused Arte to put his reduced price beer goggles on and commit a long term contract to his new Disney mail order bride! The reason we are stuck with Mediocre Mike!

Happy New Year!

[tdawg87]

based on the Op question, it is quite appropriate.. You had an organization that hadn't been to the playoffs in at least 15 years putting together spare parts and castoffs. And look what happened. So when you say Angels fans are ****ing ridiculous, you should look into the mirror once in awhile to see what ridiculous really looks like!

2002 was 14 years ago. It is absolutely irrelevant to today's team.

How about 2015? The Angels did exactly the same thing and it got them a third place finish.

[mtangelsfan]

2002 was 14 years ago. It is absolutely irrelevant to today's team.

How about 2015? The Angels did exactly the same thing and it got them a third place finish.

I know you are disappointed with how the off-season has gone so far, as am I, but come on. Angel fans aren't any more ridiculous than any other group of fans. Or any more myopic.

[AngelsLakersFan]

Baseball's popularity was at an all time low after the strike season and steroids were just what the doctor ordered to get the ratings back up. Selig conveniently ignored the facts because baseball had record attendance and TV revenue reached all time levels. The players union quickly jumped in on the new revenue stream and record contracts have resulted ever since. MLB postponed its own funeral by allowing steroids to change the game for its entertainment value. Make no mistake about it steroids saved the game and set the course for the TV contacts, player contracts and ticket prices we see today.

 

There is truth in that, but it is horribly simplified.

 

Steroids did help bring baseball back after the strike, but the money in the game today has little to do with that. Todays contracts are the result of record television deals given out by tv companies trying to prevent cord cutting and time shifting.

[Second Base]

There is truth in that, but it is horribly simplified.

 

Steroids did help bring baseball back after the strike, but the money in the game today has little to do with that. Todays contracts are the result of record television deals given out by tv companies trying to prevent cord cutting and time shifting.

 

I think that's over-simplified to an extent too.  Steroids didn't "save" the game, they'd been common since the early 80's.  The marquee talent using the more refined product resulted in record breaking numbers and that in essence took the game back to its rightful place in American sports.  I'd argue that without steroids, baseball would've grown to be a rarely played sport among the youth and the accomplishments of truly talented individuals like Ken Griffey Jr. and Barry Bonds would've gone without the rightful fanfare.  As a result, I think we would've saw the league make some truly revolutionary changes earlier to resurrect the game.  Division realignment, spending caps, more international games, perhaps an international draft and they may have even been motivated to start integrating technology like laser foul lines and replay a bit earlier. 

 

So I think steroids were simply a natural progression.  While we aren't in the hitter friendly steroid era any longer, I still think it's safe to assume probably 40% of players are still using some kind of performance enhancing drug that is not detectable.  But these products aren't like the ones before that were so blatant your neck disappeared.  When combined with tiny fields, shoebox sized strike zones and a generation of pitchers not as talented as the current ones, this resulted in 60 HR seasons being a thing of common place. 

 

Now the fields have evened out, with both hitting and pitching friendly.  The strike zones have expanded.  Steroids have been limited.  Pitchers are just flat out better in most cases (except Pedro and Randy.  My God.).  And this has created the climate where 50 HR's is now outstanding and 40 is a feat.  As for the money aspect of things, owners got rich off the revitalization of baseball, which was in part due to steroid use.  Interest and inflation have taken that money and expanded it to ridiculous proportions.  TV contracts attempting to delay the inevitable have given out huge amounts of money that have made owners even more rich.  It's only natural that a very small chunk of this money would be extended to the players and thus inflate contracts.

 

Eventually, we're going to reach a breaking point though and the game is going to be forced to change.  There is such a thing as "too rich".  The players are going to demand a certain degree of that wealth and the owners will be forced into being single digit billionaires instead of triple digit billionaires. In the mean time, spending restrictions will be adopted to try and keep contracts from getting out of hand.  If Bryce Harper doesn't break the system, Mike Trout will.  I mean we're talking 50-60 million dollars a year.

 

This is going to necessitate a move by GM's, finding another way to cut costs.  Advanced statistical analysis is just the beginning. 

[ABC]

We can still win with what we have. Everyone has to get on the same page and do their job. Guys like Pujols have to try to get on base instead of trying to round the bases every at bat. It's a team game.

 

+1

 

Even when the situations calls for a smart AB or the pitcher uses his ego against him, he tries to pull everything over the wall. It's frustrating to watch. Victor Rojas has voiced the same observation multiple times. 

[70runner]

Really difficult to picture Pujols just trying to get on base, if and when he returns from his latest old guy injury.  As someone said, if he does get on base he just clogs up the basepaths with super slow motion.  Assuming Pujols returns to his Scioscia guaranteed cleanup spot behind Trout, the current roster will be a 500 team while Trout leads the world in walks.   Winning the division would require one or two big boppers to move Pujols away from Trout and have someone at cleanup that doesn't melt with RISP.  

[ABC]

Clogging up the bases talk is silly. When Pujols comes up with the bases loaded and one out he needs to earn a walk or drive the ball in the gap instead of rolling over on a slider away ending the inning on a double play. And when he comes up with two outs with Trout on second he should hit the ball the other way and drive him in. 

[Stradling]

Albert hit into 15 double plays in 157 games, only 2 coming with the bases loaded. I agree that when they shift and give him the entire right side of the infield he should use the whole field. I also agree he hit WAY to many ground balls to third and short last year. But double plays at least for 2015 wasn't a huge issue for Albert.

[eligrba]

Clogging up the bases talk is silly. When Pujols comes up with the bases loaded and one out he needs to earn a walk or drive the ball in the gap instead of rolling over on a slider away ending the inning on a double play. And when he comes up with two outs with Trout on second he should hit the ball the other way and drive him in. 

 

Who is having that talk with Albert?

 

We can all identify who should but who, if anyone will?  And if that who, does have that talk with Albert, will Albert respond or simply refer back to his career stats?

[Ohtaniland]

Who is having that talk with Albert?

We can all identify who should but who, if anyone will? And if that who, does have that talk with Albert, will Albert respond or simply refer back to his career stats?

Albert is inculpable. He could be hitting .175 and Sosh will tell us that he's working on some things while he's really refusing to leave the lineup. Then after sucking for months he then conveniently reveals that he had a bad foot or knee or back or ankle or hip or calf and that he had a secret surgery that was just a minor clean out and not a big deal but it prevented him from hitting .320 all season but he will be ready to go in spring.

[Second Base]

Albert is inculpable. He could be hitting .175 and Sosh will tell us that he's working on some things while he's really refusing to leave the lineup. Then after sucking for months he then conveniently reveals that he had a bad foot or knee or back or ankle or hip or calf and that he had a secret surgery that was just a minor clean out and not a big deal but it prevented him from hitting .320 all season but he will be ready to go in spring.

The sad part is, you're right. Same goes for Weaver. The Angels in particular seem to set more emphasis on veteran performances of an increasingly distant past than other teams. Part of it is Scioscia and his veteran-favoring tendencies, which aren't always wrong. The other is likely the money. If they're paying a player exorbitant amounts of money, they intend to play that play regardless.

I mean if you take out the distant past and the money, what are Albert and Jered? We have an old, all-or-nothing hitter with a problem reaching base and seriously debilitating injury issues. We also have a fly ball specialist that throws an 84 mph fastball. Albert would be a starting DH, with the caveat that you have a very good option in AAA or on the bench because things could turn comically bad quickly. As for Weaver, he wouldn't be in the majors.