Judge strikes down California teacher tenure

[nate]

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/california-judge-could-change-teacher-job-security

 

Edit: please move to the political forum

Edited June 10, 2014 by nate

[nate]

lol!!!!!!!!! ^

 

This is excellent news.

[mtangelsfan]

i'd rather eat dirt than teach in california

 

they do not value teachers at all

 

Good teachers should always be valued.  Crappy teachers should always be fired.

[Blarg]

And teachers that reach a certain pay scale, regardless of value to the school and students, will be replaced with a cheaper substitution.

 

That was the whole intent of Tenure, to protect the employee of being cut when their salary reached a level commensurate with years of experience. It was abused by the Unions to protect all teachers from being dismissed for any reason instead of fighting for those that were worth fighting for and letting the system purge the incompetent.

 

This court ruling will probably not supersede agreements already in place but will jeopardize the jobs of teachers when their districts renegotiate new contracts. For all of the union busting agendas there are people that actually benefit from protections that should be in place for quality employees that will be affected by this.

 

Expect to see politicians claim they have solved the education budget crisis by letting teachers with 10 or more years experience go and hiring a bunch of college grads that have zero experience.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Eric Notti

[mtangelsfan]

And teachers that reach a certain pay scale, regardless of value to the school and students, will be replaced with a cheaper substitution.

 

That was the whole intent of Tenure, to protect the employee of being cut when their salary reached a level commensurate with years of experience. It was abused by the Unions to protect all teachers from being dismissed for any reason instead of fighting for those that were worth fighting for and letting the system purge the incompetent.

 

This court ruling will probably not supersede agreements already in place but will jeopardize the jobs of teachers when their districts renegotiate new contracts. For all of the union busting agendas there are people that actually benefit from protections that should be in place for quality employees that will be affected by this.

 

Expect to see politicians claim they have solved the education budget crisis by letting teachers with 10 or more years experience go and hiring a bunch of college grads that have zero experience.

 

It shouldn't be all or nothing.  There should be another way to protect good teachers from budget slashing.  Oh well, seems like most good things get ruined after a while.

[DowningRules]

This is a great day for California schools and their students!  In California public schools, a teacher receives tenure as early as 18 months after being hired.  18 MONTHS! 

 

And the protection of teachers with a longer school employment history over the newly hired is also being tossed out.  That is a ridiculous way to determine which teachers stay and which teachers go if there are layoffs.

 

Just as good teachers who have served a long time shouldn't be fired, neither should good teachers who have served a short time. 

 

Whenever the CTA loses, it's a good day for California.  It means there's some common sense afoot.

[Blarg]

No Dr, a teacher just gets off probation after 18 months. During that time they can be let go by a principle without Union protections for any cause.

After that they still are on shaky ground being still considered non tenured depending upon district contract. Last in, first out still applies in most districts when budget cutting regardless of years of teaching.

Example is a teacher with 20 years service in one district, changes for any reason to another district, none of the accrued years of service are applied to their status in the new district. They are considered a new hire and may still have to go through a probationary period and would be considered the first to be cut.

[Jay]

No Dr, a teacher just gets off probation after 18 months. During that time they can be let go by a principle without Union protections for any cause.

 

sheesh, public schools.

[mp170.6]

Expect to see politicians claim they have solved the education budget crisis by letting teachers with 10 or more years experience go and hiring a bunch of college grads that have zero experience.

 

I'm not so sure years of experience has the same value it does in other professions. 

 

That isn't to say it's useless, but a young college grad might bring more to the table than a 30-year veteran who is burned out and clinging to old school ways of doing things.  It's kind of scary how averse older teachers are to technology in the classroom, and yet, they're being selected to teach classes where every student is reliant upon laptops or ipads. 

[mp170.6]

Example is a teacher with 20 years service in one district, changes for any reason to another district, none of the accrued years of service are applied to their status in the new district. They are considered a new hire and may still have to go through a probationary period and would be considered the first to be cut.

 

You mean like every other person who changes jobs? 

[Jay]

I'm not so sure years of experience has the same value it does in other professions. 

 

That isn't to say it's useless, but a young college grad might bring more to the table than a 30-year veteran who is burned out and clinging to old school ways of doing things.  It's kind of scary how averse older teachers are to technology in the classroom, and yet, they're being selected to teach classes where every student is reliant upon laptops or ipads. 

 

Serious question, what do they teach in high school that requires a laptop or ipad?  Obviously if it's directly related to information technology then computers would be necessary but other than that, what?

[Blarg]

sheesh, public schools.

 

Sheesh, autocorrect.

[DowningRules]

Then how long does it take for a teacher to receive tenure after he/she's been hired?  How long is a teacher on 'shakey ground' for?  I really don't know.  I only know it's different per district.  Is it five years? Ten years? 

 

No Dr, a teacher just gets off probation after 18 months. During that time they can be let go by a principle without Union protections for any cause.

After that they still are on shaky ground being still considered non tenured depending upon district contract. Last in, first out still applies in most districts when budget cutting regardless of years of teaching.

Example is a teacher with 20 years service in one district, changes for any reason to another district, none of the accrued years of service are applied to their status in the new district. They are considered a new hire and may still have to go through a probationary period and would be considered the first to be cut.

[Blarg]

You mean like every other person who changes jobs? 

 

Most people that change jobs in the private sector can negotiate salary and benefits. That is not part of the teaching profession. No matter how good you may be the wage is what it is for years of service. If you change districts you may encounter a significant pay cut in a profession that requires a 4 year degree plus certification which is the equivalent of a masters in other lines of work.

 

Your degree is a living degree, which means you have to update it periodically by taking more certification course. You can work for any private sector job your entire life and never have to meet another educational requirement to do your job.

 

Now if the tenure rules are revoked, that puts a lot of teachers in risk of losing their jobs not based on competence but by salary. Many effective teachers with those looked down upon 30 years of service are out on the street or taking half of their earned salary to keep teaching. I'm not a pro union guy but that sounds a little unfair for everyone.

[Blarg]

Then how long does it take for a teacher to receive tenure after he/she's been hired?  How long is a teacher on 'shakey ground' for?  I really don't know.  I only know it's different per district.  Is it five years? Ten years? 

 

Different by districts and it can change by contract renewal with the district and the union.

[arch stanton]

Serious question, what do they teach in high school that requires a laptop or ipad?  Obviously if it's directly related to information technology then computers would be necessary but other than that, what?

So where's the serious question?

[mp170.6]

Serious question, what do they teach in high school that requires a laptop or ipad?  Obviously if it's directly related to information technology then computers would be necessary but other than that, what?

 

I'm not sure.  I think the ipads and laptops are being pushed at grades K-8.  Don't know if the high schools have followed suit. 

[mp170.6]

Most people that change jobs in the private sector can negotiate salary and benefits. That is not part of the teaching profession. No matter how good you may be the wage is what it is for years of service. If you change districts you may encounter a significant pay cut in a profession that requires a 4 year degree plus certification which is the equivalent of a masters in other lines of work.

 

Your degree is a living degree, which means you have to update it periodically by taking more certification course. You can work for any private sector job your entire life and never have to meet another educational requirement to do your job.

 

Now if the tenure rules are revoked, that puts a lot of teachers in risk of losing their jobs not based on competence but by salary. Many effective teachers with those looked down upon 30 years of service are out on the street or taking half of their earned salary to keep teaching. I'm not a pro union guy but that sounds a little unfair for everyone.

 

There's a lot less salary and benefit negotiation offered in the private sector than there used to be.  Somebody else will always work for less if you won't do it.  That's life post-2008 recession. 

 

Private sector workers have to update their skills and learn new things all the time, so it's really no different.  You're also forgetting about the continuing education requirements for physicians, lawyers, CPA's, and many other jobs in the private sector.  

 

Your last point about salary applies just as equally to the private sector.  That's exactly what is happening at the Orange County Register this week.  A combination of buyouts/layoffs to rid themselves of the most expensive reporters and photographers. 

[HaloMagic]

Tenure protected the teachers with the most years of experience and thus the highest pay. Couldn't we just now protect the teachers who are actually good at teaching? We don't need tenure to provide protection. Nothing is stopping us from protecting good teachers.

[Tank]

i think this is an excellent opportunity to revise the process and time required to eliminate bad teachers. isn't that really the problem these kids are bringing up in their lawsuit? tenure works well for good teachers - you want to give them whatever job security you can to encourage them to keep doing amazing and meaningful things in the classroom. but you likewise need to find an easier way to rid the system of those who aren't good at it or don't really know how to connect to the kids.

 

any revisions made to this process need to place a higher mandate on administrators to make sure they're conducting the proper steps in supervising the teachers at their school.

[DowningRules]

Sounds to me like the CTA (Calif. Teachers Association) has therefore put its teaching members in quite a pickle. 

 

 

Most people that change jobs in the private sector can negotiate salary and benefits. That is not part of the teaching profession. No matter how good you may be the wage is what it is for years of service. If you change districts you may encounter a significant pay cut in a profession that requires a 4 year degree plus certification which is the equivalent of a masters in other lines of work.

 

Your degree is a living degree, which means you have to update it periodically by taking more certification course. You can work for any private sector job your entire life and never have to meet another educational requirement to do your job.

 

Now if the tenure rules are revoked, that puts a lot of teachers in risk of losing their jobs not based on competence but by salary. Many effective teachers with those looked down upon 30 years of service are out on the street or taking half of their earned salary to keep teaching. I'm not a pro union guy but that sounds a little unfair for everyone.

[arch stanton]

There's a lot less salary and benefit negotiation offered in the private sector than there used to be.  Somebody else will always work for less if you won't do it.  That's life post-2008 recession. 

 

Private sector workers have to update their skills and learn new things all the time, so it's really no different.  You're also forgetting about the continuing education requirements for physicians, lawyers, CPA's, and many other jobs in the private sector.  

 

Your last point about salary applies just as equally to the private sector.  That's exactly what is happening at the Orange County Register this week.  A combination of buyouts/layoffs to rid themselves of the most expensive reporters and photographers. 

So do what the private sector did. Send your kids to school overseas and you can destroy the market for teachers.

[Blarg]

Thanks for bringing clarity to the subject.

[happybat4]

A job as a public school teacher is just a glorified babysitting position. I have never understood the propping up of teachers as gods.

I don't even know where to start with this. If teachers were paid 1.75 per hour for each student, like a babysitter, we would be rich.

[Adam]

A job as a public school teacher is just a glorified babysitting position. I have never understood the propping up of teachers as gods.

I used to think this so I don't fault you for it. Seeing how hard my wife works and all the complete bullshit in terms of certifications she's had to go through...she works 12 hours a day and never feels like she's caught up.