Judge strikes down California teacher tenure

[mtangelsfan]

A job as a public school teacher is just a glorified babysitting position. I have never understood the propping up of teachers as gods.

 

What a silly comment.  Teaching is an important job.  A good teacher can reach a kid and really make an impact.  A bad teacher has the potential to ruin kids and sour them on learning altogether.  That is why its important to encourage teachers and give them incentives to be the good kind.

[Tank]

A job as a public school teacher is just a glorified babysitting position. I have never understood the propping up of teachers as gods.

There are a lot of good teachers doing a lot of meaningful, creative, and positive things in public schools. I'm sorry you didn't have a better experience.

[mp170.6]

A job as a public school teacher is just a glorified babysitting position. I have never understood the propping up of teachers as gods.

 

There are a lot of good teachers doing a lot of meaningful, creative, and positive things in public schools. I'm sorry you didn't have a better experience.

 

I'm going to start a new thread asking people what they hated about their K-12 experience and what changes they would make given the chance.

 

Maybe Tank, halomatt, cezero, and other teachers can contribute their own ideas from the teacher's perspective...

[Blarg]

Yeah, you nailed it.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

Tenure protected the teachers with the most years of experience and thus the highest pay. Couldn't we just now protect the teachers who are actually good at teaching? We don't need tenure to provide protection. Nothing is stopping us from protecting good teachers.

 

When I attended nursing school, there was an instructor who was known to dislike the idea of men in nursing. She was actually caught altering the answers of a male student on an exam so that he would fail. Tenure kept her on board and she was still teaching when I reached my last semester, about four years after the incident in question.

[Tank]

The public school system is founded upon spewing useless information to justifiably uninterested kids. That's why I don't buy into the rhetoric that teachers have such a tremendous impact on society. It's not their fault, it's the system's. 

 

again, there are a lot of teachers out there doing amazing and worthwhile things.  it's tragic that there aren't enough quality teachers for every school. maybe if teachers were paid a more competitive wage it would attract better teachers.

[mp170.6]

again, there are a lot of teachers out there doing amazing and worthwhile things.  it's tragic that there aren't enough quality teachers for every school. maybe if teachers were paid a more competitive wage it would attract better teachers.

 

You mean private school teachers being paid a competitive wage? 

 

Public school teachers are well compensated. 

[arch stanton]

You mean private school teachers being paid a competitive wage? 

 

Public school teachers are well compensated. 

May I ask your definition of well compensated? Don't most teachers now hold a masters degree? Does a teacher with a masters and 10 years experience make a good package compared to others with those qualifications?

[mp170.6]

May I ask your definition of well compensated? Don't most teachers now hold a masters degree? Does a teacher with a masters and 10 years experience make a good package compared to others with those qualifications?

 

$75-100K a year

 

A lot of the master's degrees are bogus "educational leadership" degrees meant to boost salary.  My mom described the degrees like this and she's an educator herself. 

[arch stanton]

$75-100K a year

 

A lot of the master's degrees are bogus "educational leadership" degrees meant to boost salary.  My mom described the degrees like this and she's an educator herself. 

Calling someone else's masters degree bogus seems agenda driven to me. I'm sure they still cost money and time to earn.

[mp170.6]

Calling someone else's masters degree bogus seems agenda driven to me. I'm sure they still cost money and time to earn.

 

I didn't call it that, my mom did, and she has over 40 years in the profession. 

 

She says it's the easiest way for K-12 teachers to move to a higher column on the salary schedule without actually learning anything that helps students. 

[arch stanton]

I'm sure their goal is to avoid learning anything useful. It;s why they get into education to begin with, right?

[Tank]

$75-100K a year

 

A lot of the master's degrees are bogus "educational leadership" degrees meant to boost salary.  My mom described the degrees like this and she's an educator herself. 

 

my masters is in educational leadership and administration, which allows me to be a principal or a superintendent in the adventist school system. i'm not sure how that translates for public education, but i assure you it's not to boost my salary nor is it bogus.

[mp170.6]

my masters is in educational leadership and administration, which allows me to be a principal or a superintendent in the adventist school system. i'm not sure how that translates for public education, but i assure you it's not to boost my salary nor is it bogus.

 

I had to call my mom this afternoon, so I asked her about this.

 

She thinks the degree is bogus because unlike other Master's degree programs, many schools have no prerequisites, no GRE, no thesis (replaced with a project?), and relatively easy classes done online.  For the teacher who is lazy and received poor grades in college, this Master's degree program is a dream come true -- and may be the only option if the university finds them unqualified for other MA or MS programs.

 

That's where she has a major beef because it reduces the incentive for teachers to get good grades themselves, thereby attracting a lot of losers to the profession. 

[Tank]

i'm sorry your mom's experience and perspective on this are so jaded. i would guess it probably depends a great deal on the school where the masters program comes from as well as the caliber of students enrolled in that program. i've seen a lot of good teachers go through administration classes, and while not every student would make an excellent administrator, the vast majority of them would.

 

my masters program required a lot of work, and i earned it, as did my colleagues who took the same program. 

[mp170.6]

i'm sorry your mom's experience and perspective on this are so jaded. i would guess it probably depends a great deal on the school where the masters program comes from as well as the caliber of students enrolled in that program. i've seen a lot of good teachers go through administration classes, and while not every student would make an excellent administrator, the vast majority of them would.

 

my masters program required a lot of work, and i earned it, as did my colleagues who took the same program. 

 

My mom would never look down on someone based on college degree.  It probably seemed that way based on the wording of my remarks, but I wouldn't either.  I like you, Tank.

 

Her background is in learning disabilities and special ed, and I think the primary frustration is being stretched too thin and not being able to meet students' needs.  She's said a number of times that, contrary to the propaganda spread by the unions, it's not about staffing levels or funding, but a lack of teamwork because many younger teachers don't have the skills or desire to follow the same path...they would rather hand their problem children off to her.  The leadership degree allows them to follow the big money, right away with a salary boost, and also in the future if they pursue an administrator opportunity.  She's told me in the past fewer and fewer teachers are pursuing Master's degrees that directly and immediately fill urgent needs within their particular school or district. 

 

I suspect private schools don't have this problem since merit replaces tenure and seniority rights? 

[happybat4]

I am teacher with a MA in education. I have to tell you the degree is joke. I learned a little bit, though not much. The classes were so easy and some of the worst papers I ever wrote were for my masters. I received A grades on all of them. No thesis was required, just a "project". Project was a joke as well. It could be that maybe the University of La Verne is a crappy school. I know other teachers who got their MA from different schools and they all say how easy the programs are.

[happybat4]

My mom would never look down on someone based on college degree.  It probably seemed that way based on the wording of my remarks, but I wouldn't either.  I like you, Tank.

 

Her background is in learning disabilities and special ed, and I think the primary frustration is being stretched too thin and not being able to meet students' needs.  She's said a number of times that, contrary to the propaganda spread by the unions, it's not about staffing levels or funding, but a lack of teamwork because many younger teachers don't have the skills or desire to follow the same path...they would rather hand their problem children off to her.  The leadership degree allows them to follow the big money, right away with a salary boost, and also in the future if they pursue an administrator opportunity.  She's told me in the past fewer and fewer teachers are pursuing Master's degrees that directly and immediately fill urgent needs within their particular school or district. 

 

I suspect private schools don't have this problem since merit replaces tenure and seniority rights? 

Private schools pay less with way less benefits. Usually teachers work there because their son or daughter can go for free.

[nate]

You must be really depressed with no more tenure.  Next time you spit on a student they can actually fire you.

[happybat4]

I am fine with no tenure. I have seen a lot of burned out teachers that should no longer be teaching.

[Tank]

My mom would never look down on someone based on college degree.  It probably seemed that way based on the wording of my remarks, but I wouldn't either.  I like you, Tank.

 

Her background is in learning disabilities and special ed, and I think the primary frustration is being stretched too thin and not being able to meet students' needs.  She's said a number of times that, contrary to the propaganda spread by the unions, it's not about staffing levels or funding, but a lack of teamwork because many younger teachers don't have the skills or desire to follow the same path...they would rather hand their problem children off to her.  The leadership degree allows them to follow the big money, right away with a salary boost, and also in the future if they pursue an administrator opportunity.  She's told me in the past fewer and fewer teachers are pursuing Master's degrees that directly and immediately fill urgent needs within their particular school or district. 

 

I suspect private schools don't have this problem since merit replaces tenure and seniority rights? 

 

fair enough, MP. you're a good a guy and i have no beef with you.

 

in our private system, our masters programs are done (at almost zero cost to us teachers) at two adventist colleges. i pay only for books and transportation to get there, but tuition is covered by my employing organization.

 

we have our choice of a masters in administration, counseling, or curriculum. i chose administration because that's where i see myself some day. i didn't have to take the GRE but i did have to do a project that included 160 hours of working with other administrators. i also had to pass a final comprehensive exam. the classes i took on finance, evaluation, and administrative theories prepared me well for when the opportunity comes along. chasing an administrative position because of money isn't an issue in our system because administrators don't get paid six-figure salaries. they dod get a limited administrative budget, but that's based on enrollment numbers in their school. as for me, i'm at the top of the pay scale our system allows, and i've been there since the end of my third year of teaching. i get whatever the standard raise is each year but i can go no higher.

 

our system encourages teachers to pursue a masters or higher. there is minimal financial reward associated with it, nor does it guarantee tenure. our system has been going through a bit of a change in teacher evaluation in the last few years. there aren't really any automatic rehires as there once was. teachers have to be evaluated every two-three years. 

 

because we're a private school, we don't face very many special needs kids. we've had a few over the years, most recently being this past year with a student who had more problems genetically than you could imagine. never even heard of most of the things she has, but we made accommodations for her and will again this coming year. her parents know that she'll have to be in special ed for high school because we will not be able to help her at that point. when we get students like this, we help however we're able. if we can't help because their problems are too severe, we make that known, too. 

 

public schools and unions have problems we don't have. it sounds like your mom has been witness to often to a lot of that. has she ever looked into going to a private school?

[mp170.6]

That's very interesting.  If I could do it all over again, I'm sure private school would have been a better route.