Bourjos a stop gap in STL ?

[Jeff Fletcher]

That should have said "you don't sacrifice offense for defense in left."

[Season Over]

Stopgap??

You would have thought we traded the next Willie Mays based on the reaction here.

[Scott34]

The notion that they HAD to trade Bourjos because he doesn't have an everyday spot is what irks me.  Keep him as the 4th OF then.  He'd find 200-300 ABs no doubt.

[Jeff Fletcher]

You wouldn't trade 250 ABs of Bourjos for 500 ABs of Freese?

[YouthofToday]

Let me know when Grichuk becomes a 1-2 WAR player. Apparently a computer projects him to be that. I wonder if that is the same computer that picked us to make it to the World Series the last couple years.

I should have known better than to pick against a team Mike Napoli was on. Sigh.

[Brent Maguire]

You wouldn't trade 250 ABs of Bourjos for 500 ABs of Freese?

I know Freese had a down year last year but...

 

Freese '13: 521 PA 0.3 WAR

Bourjos '13: 196 PA 1.1 WAR

[YouthofToday]

Bourjos's injury that kept him out the 2nd half apparently crushed his trade value. That sucks. Tough break for the Halos.

Edited December 21, 2013 by YouthofToday

[Scott34]

You wouldn't trade 250 ABs of Bourjos for 500 ABs of Freese?

Maybe. But adding Grichuk for a fringe reliever made it an absolute no for me.

Not to mention Freese's off the field issues.

[Docwaukee]

I just don't think people get the fact that Bourjos was not going to be the halos CFer at all unless Trout got injured and if that happened, the team is hosed anyway. 

 

The org was done moving Trout back and forth.  So even as a 4th OFer, Bourjos wasn't going to play CF.  His value comes from being a CFer.  If he doesn't play there, he can't increase his value. 

 

Ergo to for thus, he was never going to be any more valuable as a halo than he was the day we moved him for Freese. 

 

Yes, they sold low. Yes, they f'd up and didn't trade him sooner.  Maybe they could have gone a different route a traded him for a high-A prospect so they didn't have to give up Grichuk as well.  But they saw a hole on the 2014 team and they patched it with a player whose value was what it was and wasn't going to get any better. 

 

Trading from a point of redundancy is a good way to fill holes, and it makes sense, but be damn certain that the other team knows the player you are trading has less value to you because you have no way to maximize their value.  What you get in return is somewhere between what the player is actually worth and what they are worth to your team. 

[Brent Maguire]

I can agree with that Doc. 

 

At the beginning of the offseason, I thought Bourjos could be packaged with someone else to bring in a #3 guy. Clearly, the market wasn't shaping out in a way where we could expect that kind of return. Most people, like myself, were a little upset at the time of the trade because Bourjos seemed a little more valuable. 

 

Now I don't hate the trade as much. Dipoto had a good plan and found 2 pitchers we were looking for. It would've been cool to see Bourjos traded for a nice prospect or 2 but Freese definitely filled an immediate hole and his offensive production should be a huge upgrade at 3rd. 

[Docwaukee]

I can agree with that Doc. 

 

At the beginning of the offseason, I thought Bourjos could be packaged with someone else to bring in a #3 guy. Clearly, the market wasn't shaping out in a way where we could expect that kind of return. Most people, like myself, were a little upset at the time of the trade because Bourjos seemed a little more valuable. 

 

Now I don't hate the trade as much. Dipoto had a good plan and found 2 pitchers we were looking for. It would've been cool to see Bourjos traded for a nice prospect or 2 but Freese definitely filled an immediate hole and his offensive production should be a huge upgrade at 3rd. 

 

I felt the same way when the trade first happened until I realized that part of the intent was to make sure that Trout was the everyday CFer and that Bourjos wouldn't be playing where.  Other teams figured this out and it hurt Pete's value on the trade market.  Still not thrilled about giving up Grichuk in the deal, but at least it's gone from a seemingly bad deal to at least a wait and see. 

[Brent Maguire]

Yeah I'm still perplexed by the Grichuk thing. I think his floor is a nice platoon outfielder which has some value nowadays. 

 

Lets just hope Salas pitches like his 2011 self. 

[EDinTUSTIN]

Let me know when Grichuk becomes a 1-2 WAR player. Apparently a computer projects him to be that. I wonder if that is the same computer that picked us to make it to the World Series the last couple years.

lol  Yep!

[James]

So sick and tired of hearing that Girchuck was too much to give up. He is far from a sure thing. A trade that makes sense for both teams I don't get how one cant understand that.

[Angels_Make_Me_Drink]

Lol I don't understand people upset about losing Grichuk…he was a good prospect, but nothing that isn't too hard to replace in the upcoming drafts. And throwing his projected WAR out there is a bit ridiculous. What was Brandon Wood's projected WAR when he was our top prospect? Did the trade suck? That is up for debate, but we got nice offensive production and what should be an impact now player in Freese to fill a major hole for us. Now, if Salas can go back to 2011 type numbers, then I think we win this trade.

[Inside Pitch]

Lol I don't understand people upset about losing Grichuk…he was a good prospect, but nothing that isn't too hard to replace in the upcoming drafts. And throwing his projected WAR out there is a bit ridiculous. What was Brandon Wood's projected WAR when he was our top prospect? Did the trade suck? That is up for debate, but we got nice offensive production and what should be an impact now player in Freese to fill a major hole for us. Now, if Salas can go back to 2011 type numbers, then I think we win this trade.

 

All the data that screamed Wood would bust is also screaming that Grichuk will pan out -- but that has nothing to do with his projected WAR,. 

 

Some of you use the Brandon Wood defense like it's the Chewbacca Defense and an instant win.  It's like every prospect is the same and should be made available because Brandon Wood didn't live up to hype created in High A.  Those computer projections that people like to mock have proven far more accurate than idiotic scout baselines like "the good face".  Grichuk is being as badly underrated by numbers impacted by his environment and bad luck as Wood was for his environment and good luck -- it's funny really.  That's not to say he doesn't have his flaws, because he does and they are easy to pick out but he was likely the Angels best candidate to break out in a big way given SLC played to his tools.  It will be interesting to watch what happens now considering he's going to be in AAA in yet another pitcher's park vs a hitter's haven.

 

Regardless, IMO the best defense of moving Grichuk is that the Halos possibly felt Borenstein stood a better chance of being ready first.

 

Meanwhile the Angels are an injury away from Shuck/Cowgill everyday OFer.  That's not at all worrisome.

[Inside Pitch]

 

If we weren't able to make a move for young controllable pitching like we did in the Trumbo trade, I'd feel the offseason would have been incomplete.  In terms of the long view of the offseason, Dipoto has upgraded the areas we set out to address, and we may still get more. 

 

 

Kevin Towers basically saved the Angels offseason.  Dipoto deserves all the praise in the world for knowing who to call and exploit.  BTW, it's the tools guys that are down on Skaggs.  The stats dorks are all arguing it was bad luck.   People should totally mock those numbers even when the Angels stand to benefit from the analysis.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Inside Pitch

[arch stanton]

Does anyone truly believe that Grichuk would be a more valuable player for the Angels than Salas over the next 2 seasons? I thought it was pretty clear that we're gearing up for a run right now.

[Inside Pitch]

Does anyone truly believe that Grichuk would be a more valuable player for the Angels than Salas over the next 2 seasons? I thought it was pretty clear that we're gearing up for a run right now.

 

Meh -- that's just it.   The Angels win now mode ignores potential value for the here and now.   I cut bait on the argument upon realizing the Angels weren't thinking long term despite the things Dipoto had said int he past.  I was guilty of buying into JD's BS..  That's on me.

 

Based on the whole premise of having guys in a certain age range and prolonged winning, moving Grichuk when they did was a bad deal.  Based on a two guys trying to save their jobs and win now -- the deal isn't hard to defend.

[Jeff Fletcher]

I wouldn't say Dipoto is necessarily throwing away the future to win now for personal reasons. Whoever is the GM of the Angels, even if he's got a 10-year contract must understand that Pujols and Hamilton give the team a very small window to win. In 2016 Pujols, Hamilton, Weaver, Wilson and Aybar are going to be making a combined -- off the top of my head -- $110 million or so, and all are likely to be worse than they are today. Mike Trout will still be a star but he'll also be making $15M or so. That's going to make it awfully hard to win. That's why they have to win now.

Also, referring the earlier comment about Bourjos' WAR compared to Freese, as I said before that's a meaningless stat because of the "replacement" in question. Bourjos value is based almost entirely on him being a major defensive upgrade to whoever else is playing CF, which he's not with the Angels. Freese, on the other hand, even in his bad year was more productive than who the Angels had at 3B in 2013, let alone who they were going to run out there in 2014.

[stormngt]

I think we all get it. It was a massive overpay because it's easy to knock on Bourjos' health and the way 2013 ended for him. He was a terrible trading chip, and while I'm sure a lot of teams were interested in him they were all looking to get a good deal. The Cardinals are perhaps the best run franchise in baseball, they don't make moves unless they are winning them on the value end. We had to give up the two best players in the deal in order to make our on-the-field team a little better. DiPoto was desperate.

 

They have a ton of great players and Bourjos is now plan A in centerfield, but give his injury history they are operating under the assumption that he can't play every day. If he can't maybe Grichuk (Im sure he isn't plan B, or C though) steps in... It's better to assume the worst and be prepared for it than it is to expect the best and not be ready when it doesn't happen.

 

At this point it's best we all wait and see how well Freese plays here. If he has a 3 WAR season I'll say the trade worked out all right for us, no matter how Bourjos does.

Since we were planning on trading Trumbo, Bourjos was not our #4 OF.  Calhoun could have played DH.

 

I don't like the trade.  Trading Trumbo made the PB trade look even worse.  However, if Freese ends up playing well for the Halo's than Dipoto will come out looking like a genius. 

 

BTW everyone who argues that PB was injury prone looks ignorant.  He had one season where we ended up on the DL.  That was because he got hit by a pitch.

 

PB basically was screwed over by Sosh....and I like Sosh, but he was screwed over.  PB was the best player on the team en 2009 (shows how bad the team was).  In 2010 he platooned with Wells and Abreu and he slumped with limited playing time.  The need to play Abreu and Wells over him was absolutely stupid.  Then, when the team became desperate, they moved Trumbo to OF and Trout was promoted.

 

I am willing to bet PB plays in at least one All Star game.  

[stormngt]

Everyone talks about Peter Bourjos' WAR but it's a little misleading with the Angels. First of all, his value is almost entirely on defense as a CF. But with the Angels who is "replacement" if Bourjos isn't in center?

Mike Trout!

So when you put Bourjos in the lineup you're improving CF by a little and improving LF by a lot. So let's say Bourjos was great defensive LF. How valuable would it be to put his bat and glove in LF? You don't sacrifice defense for offense in left.

Kole Calhoun probably has a better bat and he's cheaper, plus it allows Trout and Hamilton to play the positions they are most comfortable at.

So if Bourjos is the Angels fourth OF, his value isn't going higher. Only lower. As for Grichuk, being the Angels best outfield prospect is different than being a good prospect. He's about 10th with the Cards.

 

Next year, PB replacement is not Mike Trout.  It is Raul Ibanez.

[Mile High Dreams]

Funny that you all needed to wait until another GM told you what Ive told you for years.

[Jeff Fletcher]

Next year, PB replacement is not Mike Trout.  It is Raul Ibanez.

If you wanna play it that way, you can't count defense in the WAR calculation. How valuable is Bourjos then?

[Jim]

Meanwhile the Angels are an injury away from Shuck/Cowgill everyday OFer.  That's not at all worrisome.

This, this, and that.