Butcher

[nando714]

Seems like no one is talking about him if MS stays on

If he stays on for 2014 I have zero confidence our pitching will get any better then what it already is.

[ten ocho recon scout]

I usually try and look at the product a coach is given befofe judging. In hatchers case, sure he seemed lost, but aside from vlad he was never really given a lot of talent.

In butcher, weaver/wilson and a few other guys have been good, but the low end guys are probably more to blame than butcher.

That said, with the struggles seve had, and seeing santana and waldens years, it can't be ignored.

The best coach in the world couldn't fix blanton and guys like him. But a better coach could probably help guys like jepsen.

So yes, I hope we look to replace him.

[WallyWorld]

Replacing Butcher seems like the absolute bear minimum of what they have to do this winter in terms of coaching staff/FO changes.

[red321]

It will come down to who wins the arm wrestling match. If Scioscia stays, the staff stays. If Dipoto stays, I imagine most of the staff is gone. I don't see a scenario where Scioscia stays but most of the staff is fired, at that point it would denote he lost the arm wrestling match and I don't see him staying if that's the case.

 

Maybe I'm wrong and he sacrifices most of the staff to stay, but I tend to doubt it.

[Ohtaniland]

Someone has to pay. May as well be Butcher. 

[Angel Oracle]

Butcher had little background before arriving here. The performance has gotten worse from season to season.

Give it up Scioscia, you need a new pitching coach.

[Angel Oracle]

"Fill in the blank is scuffling some. The ball was coming out of his hand well. Butchey will help him work on some things, and he'll get to where we need him to be."

[shellback]

i can think of one pitcher that has improved during his tenure with the angels- dane de la rosa.

and a alot of pitchers that radically improved when they left the angels.

lets take fernando rodney- goes from big time loser at anaheim to a nearly perfect performance at tampa bay last year.

rodney said that while in anaheim when he began to scuffle, butchy boy and sosh wanted him to change everything- to start over from square one.

just another symptom of a group of yes men coaches led by a egomaniac manager that can't/won't relate to young players.

mix that in with a meddling owner and a gm thats evidently out on an island by himself-

where do i sign up for season tickets?

just a little dose of reality, boys. and it don't look to get much better in the coming years.

Edited October 3, 2013 by shellback

[Jay]

I think if you ask CJ Wilson he will tell you that Butcher played an important role in turning this season around.

[Angel Oracle]

Part one of the fix was two years ago: buh bye Reagins.

Part two of the fix: stop meddling in personnel decisions Moreno.

Part three: new pitching coach.

Part four if the team doesn't show significant improvement in 2014: buh bye Scioscia.

[nando714]

Part one of the fix was two years ago: buh bye Reagins.

Part two of the fix: stop meddling in personnel decisions Moreno.

Part three: new pitching coach.

Part four if the team doesn't show significant improvement in 2014: buh bye Scioscia.

5 yr plan we all have to suffer through while this organization figures out what the hell they're doing......

[shellback]

my opinion exactly... a soviet union- like 5 yr plan

 

i hung through alot longer periods than that as a fan of this team

be nice to live to see the turnaround here's hopin

[Stradling]

Rodney was a joke as an Angel and before he was an Angel. I hate when players call out coaching as opposed to, I don't know, taking responsibility for their own suckage. Pitchers that throw really hard and have good change ups, can have a season where they catch lightning in a bottle, that is what happened with Rodney. He wasn't that great this year and had stretches that made him look a lot like Frieri.

[shellback]

the question is : why did butchy and sosh tell the guy to change everything?

[Stradling]

Because what he was doing wasn't working and had never worked? Look at his stats in Detroit. The Angels brought him in (a mistake) because he had a big arm and they were hoping they could turn him around.

[Lifetime]

They didn't 

[Stradling]

Randy, I seem to remember something about the Angels asking him to work from a different side of the mound, or something to that affect. I know they asked him to try something different, I just don't recall exactly what it was.

[Lifetime]

Randy, I seem to remember something about the Angels asking him to work from a different side of the mound, or something to that affect. I know they asked him to try something different, I just don't recall exactly what it was.

Asking him to change something, like move to the other side of the rubber is a minor tweek and a far cry from asking him to change everything. It's an exaggerated lame excuse for poor performance. 

[Stradling]

I am not arguing that with you, because I think the guy is a POS and he is worse than any of us as it relates to playing the blame game.

[Lifetime]

I am not arguing that with you, because I think the guy is a POS and he is worse than any of us as it relates to playing the blame game.

I know that. That was not really aimed at you. I know the Angels tried to tweak his mechanics and rightfully so. Blaming his suckage as an Angel on Butcher and Scioscia trying to tweak his mechanics is ridiculous. 

[tdawg87]

Rodney has sucked for 99% of his career. Last year was a fluke.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

Rodney has sucked for 99% of his career. Last year was a fluke.

 

It certainly seems to have been. Looking at his career stats, almost everything about it was an aberration. This season was much closer to his career norms.

[shellback]

id like to ask y'all about pitchers that have improved while being on this team and its current coaching staff.

and why the greater number of pitchers(and position players) improve when they leave.

no im not making a list. just what appears in my opinion (all legal disclaimers apply randy) to be a pattern in player performance under the current field staff.

[Stradling]

Yea, Lackey and Figgins have been amazing. As have Vernon, GMJ and Texeiria. By the way Torrii and Morales haven't improved either. Your memory is jaded because you feel slighted because your team is not winning.

[tdawg87]

There's hardly enough data to support that. Lackey got worse, Figgins got worse, Kotchman was basically the same, Dmac and Wood didn't improve, Fuentes was the same, Haren was arguably worse. I know there are others.

People will say Rodney got better once he left but he sucked for Detroit before coming to the Angels. He was the same exact pitcher here. Last year was a complete abberation.

Santana is another one but had good years in Anaheim too. I'd wait until next year before claiming he got better once he left.

Walden was a pretty solid reliever here. His numbers in the NL aren't exactly unexpected. How about Downs? He got worse when he went to Atlanta, albeit a small sample size.

Chatwood did well this year but I can't help but think it was a fluke. His WHIP sucked and he was pitching at Coors. I'm willing to bet his numbers inflate in 2014.

The whole "players get better once they leave" thing is blown way out of proportion. Some have gotten better, while others have gotten worse or stayed the same. That happens to every team.