California Legislature Approves Driver's Licenses For Undocumented Immigrants

[TobiasFunke]

I spent 2 years teaching illegal immigrants about Jesus Christ in the state of Idaho.  That definitely changed by perspective on this entire issue.  I never met one that worked any less than 8 hours a day (usually closer to 12) in the worst work conditions in the country.  They all paid taxes and they are the finest group of people I've ever known. All of them were here because they loved their families and worked as hard as they could to at least put some food on the table for their children, something that they probably couldn't do in their respective countries.

 

All you hear from the mainstream media about the majority of "illegals" coming here to collect welfare and not work is absolutely false, at least from what I experienced for 2 years.

You have direct experience therefore your opinion means nothing

[mtangelsfan]

If I've learned one thing in my time overseas it's that the unskilled labor market is global. The people who could actually do something about "illegal immigration" are the ones who stand to profit from it. Once you accept the fact that nobody is going to stop them from coming here...ever....then you can get on with your life and let them get on with theirs.

 

If this was in a vaccuum, I would agree.  But it isn't.

 

1.  We still are targets of terrorism, the easier it is for people to come here illegally, the more likely terrorists can get here that way.

2.  We still give away free stuff, hence people come here and get free stuff.  This is coupled with the fact that while they may be paying usage and sales tax, they are not paying income tax, so the pull on our economy is even worse.

3.  We still have actual laws that say these people are here illegally.  It is wrong to give them benefits and priviledges while they are breaking the law.  If we want to understand why the rule of law in this country seems to be eroding yearly, this is one of the reasons why.

4.  This country is facing an issue of overpopulation, this is counterproductive to that issue. 

[TobiasFunke]

I'm sorry but I just don't buy the overpopulation excuse. It seems like "overpopulation" was never an issue or even a thing until the job market crashed.

[mtangelsfan]

How else do you explain the complete drain on our system? 

 

Regardless, remove that point from my post if you wish.  That still leaves three.

[TobiasFunke]

I'm not bashing your points MT, but this was the second time in this thread that overpopulation was brought up. I just don't buy it.

[mtangelsfan]

I'm not bashing your points MT, but this was the second time in this thread that overpopulation was brought up. I just don't buy it.

 

No worries, it's ok to disagree.  

[arch stanton]

If this was in a vaccuum, I would agree.  But it isn't.

 

1.  We still are targets of terrorism, the easier it is for people to come here illegally, the more likely terrorists can get here that way.

2.  We still give away free stuff, hence people come here and get free stuff.  This is coupled with the fact that while they may be paying usage and sales tax, they are not paying income tax, so the pull on our economy is even worse.

3.  We still have actual laws that say these people are here illegally.  It is wrong to give them benefits and priviledges while they are breaking the law.  If we want to understand why the rule of law in this country seems to be eroding yearly, this is one of the reasons why.

4.  This country is facing an issue of overpopulation, this is counterproductive to that issue. 

1. I don't remember hearing that anyone involved in a terrorist plot was illegal. Making the immigration argument about terrorism is a misdirection play.

2. 3. 4. My point is that these are issues that are top level generated and are a price that the American elite does not only not pay, but gains benefits from, While the fast food workers are asking for $15 an hour the majority of these people willingly work for half that and no benefits. If you want to attack the problem of illegal immigration then you need to find ways to kill the incentives for the ones who feed it.

[mtangelsfan]

1. I don't remember hearing that anyone involved in a terrorist plot was illegal. Making the immigration argument about terrorism is a misdirection play.

2. 3. 4. My point is that these are issues that are top level generated and are a price that the American elite does not only not pay, but gains benefits from, While the fast food workers are asking for $15 an hour the majority of these people willingly work for half that and no benefits. If you want to attack the problem of illegal immigration then you need to find ways to kill the incentives for the ones who feed it.

 

But your argument is still in a vacuum.  I'm fine with open borders if all the other things are stopped.  But we are both talking about something that won't ever, ever happen.  The spigot will never turn off and the borders will never be closed.

[nate]

100% agree with MT here.

[Tank]

with the constant threat of terrorism. i just don't understand the idea of having open borders. if anything, we should guard them even more vigorously. we should also be clamping down on people who come here on a six month visa (or however long it's for) but it expires and there's no one to get them to leave the country.

[arch stanton]

The threat of terrorism can come from anyone at anytime. Could be illegals, legals, even citizens. The way to fight terrorism is to track materials and actions, not random individuals who may or may not have a driver license. 

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending illegal immigration. I'm just pointing out that keeping a migrant farmhand from having a license while giving a pass to the ones who hire him is a pointless cat herding exercise. Change has to come from the top down and I don't see the American public having the stones to pick that fight.

[HaloMagic]

If it becomes easy to gain entry to the country by following the rules then more people will follow the rules to make entry into the country. Two things would then happen. It would allow us to better know who is in the country and would make the support for people in the country illegal essentially disappear. So anyone who is found to have skirted the rules to enter can be assumed to be up to no good and can be deported without large portions of the population having a problem with it. Open borders doesn't mean just waving people in. We'd still track who comes and goes. I don't buy the overpopulation argument. And the fact that we give too much stuff away means we need to change two things, not zero.

[Jay]

Not in favor of making it easy to enter the country.  Who wants a bunch of indigents who can't find work in their own country?  We should be selective about who gets in.  Agree we should somehow streamline the application process but we should reject about 99% of the applications.

[HaloMagic]

If not being able to find work in your own country is undesirable then we should be looking at booting out a good amount of people here, too. I heard a lot of people complaining about Obama due to how hard it was to find work here. Turns out it wasn't Obama's fault. It was their own.

Edited September 17, 2013 by HaloMagic

[Jay]

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/09/16/undocumented-la-county-parents-projected-to-receive-650m-in-welfare-benefits/

 

Undocumented LA County Parents On Pace To Receive $650M In Welfare Benefits

 

-----

 

for 2013

[2002_halos_II]

An estimated 100,000 children of 60,000 undocumented parents receive aid in Los Angeles County, according to Antonovich


wow

[HaloMagic]

$650mm is 2.6% of LA County's budget. I wonder how much these people have generated for the county with the taxes they've paid.

[2002_halos_II]

$650mm is 2.6% of LA County's budget. I wonder how much these people have generated for the county with the taxes they've paid.

me too

[Rico]

 

 

If I were in charge we would have turrets at the borders and it would be open season on anyone they saw trying to sneak in.

 

YES!  Coming to this country illegally to better their lives and live the American dream is a crime worthy of being gunned down by turrets.  Bravo!

[Rico]

How else do you explain the complete drain on our system? 

 

Black people.

 

/racist

[mtangelsfan]

This isn't about what kind of people are crossing the border.  I spent forty years of my life in SoCal so it's not like I'm just some hick from Montana who hasn't seen what immigration is all about. 

 

I'm not going to make value judgement on what type of persons they are.  I'm sure if I was in that situation I may make the same decision they have.  However, that still doesn't make it right.  The issue is rule of law, we have it (or are supposed to).  To give benefit to people who do not follow the rule of law is counter to what rule of law is supposed to do.  There are thousands upon thousands of people who have gone through the proper channels (followed the rule of law) and are waiting to become true citizens of this country.  If we just hand over citizenship (or the rights thereof) to the millions who have come here illegally, what are we saying to those folks?

 

as far as the taxes question goes (how much income) I don't know the answer but it's not nearly as much as it would be if they were legal.

[Adam]

[HaloMagic]

As far as the taxes question goes (how much income) I don't know the answer but it's not nearly as much as it would be if they were legal.

That's solvable. To not solve it because they broke the law is like demanding a $0.30 refund "because of the principle of it all." It works in a vacuum. Not in real life. These people are here. They aren't leaving. And they are paying less than they could be. Doing nothing to change that is bad policy.

[mtangelsfan]

Then change the policy, but don't keep giving bennies to people who aren't following the current one.  

 

If you want comparisons, it's like charging one person a grand for citizenship and giving the next person it for free because they threatened to steal it.

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

The people are here and not leaving because the federal government doesn't do it's job.  Then the states most notably the border states get saddled with the costs associated with illegal immigrants and when they try to do something (i.e. Arizona) the feds step in.  Giving citizenship to people here illegally does nothing if the border isn't secured because we'll be facing the same issue again in so many years.  I agree with mt that it sends the wrong message.  My dad's side of the family came here through legal means which took time and money.  My cousin had to leave the country with his wife who had either her masters or PHD and her student visa ran out but she was still working and making decent money.  The person working at INS told her she technically had to leave the country or she could just walk out the door and not look back.  I don't see anything being done to curb the amount of money we hand out to citizens and non citizens alike and until that's addressed along with social security and medicare I don't agree with giving millions here illegally citizenship.