Starting Pitching

[Stradling]

Hey smart guys got a question for you. A couple of assumptions here, one we are going to a 5 man rotation and the other is we can carry one less pitcher because Shohei was a two way player, although I am not sure that will impact the number of pitchers in the pen.  Anyway, here is my question, do you see a chance our starters will be asked to go a little deeper into games as they are maturing?  Or the fact they are pitching in a traditional 5 man rotation, would that limit innings per start because they will be asked to start a few more games over the course of a season? Only a hand full of pitchers in the majors averaged 6 innings per start last year.  Canning averaged the most innings per start as an Angel at 5.77 innings. All of our starters averaged over 5 innings which feels like the first time in a long time.  Interested in your thoughts.  

[Chitown27Fan]

100% they will want them to go more innings but they wanted that even when they were in a 6 man rotation. Biggest problem I seen last year with the pitchers we have/had was the lack of an out pitch so many 0-2 counts getting to 3-2 and walks due to lacking a get them out of there pitch. strike 1 strike 2 then nibble nibble nibble walk. My concern with going back to a 5 man rotation is are the guys now used to the 6 man and extra rest will it effect them physically and we have more injury risk only time will tell on that front I guess.

[Dtwncbad]

I don’t think going deeper into games is exclusively an issue of stamina, fatigue or the number of days rest.

I think the shorter outings is mostly due to contemporary statistical analysis of the decline in effectiveness in facing the same batter the third time through the lineup.  And that is not also in isolation.  It’s the combination of how fatigued a pitcher is and the fact that they are facing the hitter a third time.

My personal opinion is even the pitch count is a bit overplayed.  Yes there is fatigue.  But is the concern of some fatigue really always injury, or is it expected effectiveness?

Also it is certainly a lot easier to defend taking a pitcher out at a pitch count than it is to say “We don’t believe in his ability in that situation of third time through the lineup.”

So I don’t think it will be a matter of the pitchers being “asked” to go deeper into games.  It could be a matter of them just getting better.  If the starter simply improves (strad used the word “maturing”), then maybe they are into the sixth inning with more experience and less overall fatigue (a mature pitcher may get through a troubled third inning with fewer pitches).

I could envision the starters (overall) go slightly deeper into games even with a five man rotation, especially when you have a number of guys coming into their prime.

[Stradling]

1 hour ago, Chitown27Fan said:

100% they will want them to go more innings but they wanted that even when they were in a 6 man rotation. Biggest problem I seen last year with the pitchers we have/had was the lack of an out pitch so many 0-2 counts getting to 3-2 and walks due to lacking a get them out of there pitch. strike 1 strike 2 then nibble nibble nibble walk. My concern with going back to a 5 man rotation is are the guys now used to the 6 man and extra rest will it effect them physically and we have more injury risk only time will tell on that front I guess.

Not according to how they faired pitching on 4 days rest versus 5 or 6 days rest last year. Every pitcher pitched better on 4 days rest. 

[Angel Oracle]

Detmers, Sandoval, and Anderson should be able to make around 30-33 starts and pitch at least 170 innings.

Canning might be able to reach the minimum 162 innings, but more likely around 150 innings.

Silseth is the one that might be difficult to stretch out to at least 150 innings, due to a lack of innings in his past.

[BTH]

I don’t think Perry/Wash are into innings limits, even if they transition to a 5-man rotation.

I think how deep they go will be purely performance based

[Inside Pitch]

5 hours ago, Stradling said:

Hey smart guys got a question for you. A couple of assumptions here, one we are going to a 5 man rotation and the other is we can carry one less pitcher because Shohei was a two way player, although I am not sure that will impact the number of pitchers in the pen.  Anyway, here is my question, do you see a chance our starters will be asked to go a little deeper into games as they are maturing?  Or the fact they are pitching in a traditional 5 man rotation, would that limit innings per start because they will be asked to start a few more games over the course of a season? Only a hand full of pitchers in the majors averaged 6 innings per start last year.  Canning averaged the most innings per start as an Angel at 5.77 innings. All of our starters averaged over 5 innings which feels like the first time in a long time.  Interested in your thoughts.  

I don't think it will make any real difference in how they use the pitchers other than they will pitch more often.  A deeper pen helps them... regardless, having a couple long guys like Suarez and Plesac may help as well.  If they do decide to limit pitcher innings at some point my guess is they may just have guys skip starts or have a swingman start in their stead.

Minasian has done a solid job with the pen, much better than the Loup and Tepera winter, or the clusterfuck that was the year before where it seemed like talent wasn't a priority so much as arm angles were.

I really like the idea of adding another starting pitcher and having Daniel and Silseth waiting in the wings.  Let's pretend that Bachman does what he hasn't ever done and stays off the DL, that Silseth continues to do what he did and Davis Daniels picks up where he left off.  Those three would be the best three SP options they have had in AAA in a very long time.  

[Hubs]

On 1/24/2024 at 7:45 AM, Angel Oracle said:

Detmers, Sandoval, and Anderson should be able to make around 30-33 starts and pitch at least 170 innings.

Canning might be able to reach the minimum 162 innings, but more likely around 150 innings.

Silseth is the one that might be difficult to stretch out to at least 150 innings, due to a lack of innings in his past.

They've not been anywhere near this for their entire career, why do you think they would get there?

And Snell pitched 180 innings and people are worried about his length. 

[totdprods]

2 hours ago, Hubs said:

They've not been anywhere near this for their entire career, why do you think they would get there?

And Snell pitched 180 innings and people are worried about his length. 

to be fair, it was kind of hard for them to ever attain that with a 6-man rotation. But I agree that it's optimistic, or at least unreasonable to pencil them in for that.

180 IP is pretty tough for most SPs to reach these days.

[Hubs]

1 hour ago, totdprods said:

to be fair, it was kind of hard for them to ever attain that with a 6-man rotation. But I agree that it's optimistic, or at least unreasonable to pencil them in for that.

180 IP is pretty tough for most SPs to reach these days.

I'm just saying 180 over 32 starts is just a hair under where Canning was at 5.625 innings per start, or 5.2 if you count that way. (5.1, 5.2, etc.).

People call him a 5 inning pitcher, but in reality he's just the new norm.

[totdprods]

I'm actually pretty optimistic on our rotation. I maintain that Detmers is gonna put it together real soon and become, at a minimum, a legit #2 any day. 30 GS, close to 180 IP, sub 3.50 ERA. Canning is gonna settle in as a steady #4, 4.25 ERA guy, some stretches where he's better, some where he's worse, so long as he can maintain his health. I don't think Anderson will be as bad as last year, but he won't come close to his Dodgers success. Hoping for a 4.50 ERA and eating innings. Sandoval is the wild card. I worry we've seen his best, and he's going to follow a Hector Santiago-type career path, but sure hope I'm wrong. I think Silseth can produce this year, and I think Daniel can as well. I'm not expecting it, but I also wouldn't be totally surprised if Plesac resurrected his career here.

I'd like to see them continue with their redemption tour signings and snag Spencer Turnbull maybe on a minor league deal if he'll bite, and, as much as I'm wary of him and some of his antics, Clevinger on a one-year deal, or maybe akin to Wacha's 2/$32M or a 3/$30M if he'd be willing. Not that I'd want to have him that long necessarily, but to build his trade value up if he's pitching well and we're out of it at the deadline.

[tdawg87]

I really want Montgomery but at this point fuck it. Get Snell. I don't care. Just add to the front of the rotation. I think with a 5 man rotation we have a lot of potential. Especially because of the depth we could have. 

[Slegnaac]

On 1/24/2024 at 6:25 AM, Stradling said:

Hey smart guys got a question for you. A couple of assumptions here, one we are going to a 5 man rotation and the other is we can carry one less pitcher because Shohei was a two way player, although I am not sure that will impact the number of pitchers in the pen.  Anyway, here is my question, do you see a chance our starters will be asked to go a little deeper into games as they are maturing?  Or the fact they are pitching in a traditional 5 man rotation, would that limit innings per start because they will be asked to start a few more games over the course of a season? Only a hand full of pitchers in the majors averaged 6 innings per start last year.  Canning averaged the most innings per start as an Angel at 5.77 innings. All of our starters averaged over 5 innings which feels like the first time in a long time.  Interested in your thoughts.  

I don't see how they could realistically go with a 6 man rotation since that would reduce the number of RPs by 1.

Ohtani did not count against the roster pitcher requirements.

[Hubs]

5 minutes ago, Slegnaac said:

I don't see how they could realistically go with a 6 man rotation since that would reduce the number of RPs by 1.

Ohtani did not count against the roster pitcher requirements.

Starters would have to go deeper and they'd have a 7 man pen. 7 man pens used to be quite common like when the Angels won the World Series, they had 7 most of that year, with their Bench being Gil, Palmiero, Fabregas and either Nieves, Ochoa or a third catcher.

Their pen was Percy, Shields, Donnelly, Levine, Weber, Pote and Cook. Schoeneweis shifted to the pen midseason, and Cook was gone.