Manager / GM Candidates

[Hubs]

Just now, Blarg said:

During Maddon's term he managed almost as if he were trying to prove everyone wrong about how analytics were important and seat of the pants was the answer.

Then he did dumb shit like intentionally walk a go ahead run in with a guy that was neither on a hot streak or a feared hitter.

His defensive alignments went completely counter to what the metrics said to do and the Angels paid for it in offering free hits and runs through reverse shifts Maddon thought were genius. He was a fucking disaster. It wasn't just that he rejected the analytics, he managed to spite them and earned a well deserved firing.

And if you think he was right then take a look at the other 29 teams that have not offered him a position and it's not like he announced he was retired like Scioscia did. He wrote a book but was it fact or fiction? 

I mean, he doesn't get into defensive alignments in the book. And I agree, his defensive alignments sucked with the Shift etc. 

But it does talk about Bullpen Matrixes and Minasian having a locker in the locker room. I think it was personality more than analytics. 

[Inside Pitch]

18 minutes ago, Hubs said:

You say early bullpen usage tired the BP out, and they had a matrix, so either manager had the same resources. 

I'm not saying that so much as I'm saying it's dumb to just look at the numbers devoid of context and try to come up with an opinion devoid of any real facts.  Also, you can have a matrix in place and some guy can still go rogue and fuck it up.  Not having any insight into the situation if I were to argue that was the case I'd be talking out my ass.

18 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Injuries obviously affected who was playing, I just think they are a convenient excuse for the Maddon haters and Minasian fans. I understand that most on here like Minasian and don't like Maddon and a lot didn't like Scioscia in the end. 

Maybe you're projecting.  If the lineups were different due to injuries thats not a convenient excuse, thats an inconvenient reality.  To blindly wave off that reality because you like a guy and want to pretend that shit didn't happen is lame IMO.  I don't really know if I like or dislike Minasian in large part because I don't know how much influence Maddon had on his drinking buddy, Arte.  What I do know is that Minasian's 3rd offseason was vastly different than his first two.  

Im interested to see how Minasian follows up last winter and then his "go for it" moment at the deadline.  

18 minutes ago, Hubs said:

But the worst Angels teams I've personally seen coached were by Terry Collins, Brad Ausmus, and Phil Nevin. 

I despise Terry Collins and yet my issues with him weren't so much his knowledge of the game or his gameplans -- it was 100% how he ran his clubhouse and how tightly he gripped the game.  Dude played game 1 of ST like it was game 7 of the WS.  He was a miserable SOB and the best thing that happened to him was 1999.  Terry Collins sucked the life out of every team he managed until that implosion.

[The Ghost of Bob Starr]

I don’t pay attention enough to know whether PM sucks or not at his job. I’m pretty convinced Artie sucks. Nevin, he was probably in over his head.  
 

the org has problems. I don’t know if PM is the right guy.  He doesn’t do anything for me, but with the carousel of GMs and managers in the last several years, I’m not upset he’s in for another year.  
 

inwish the angels had someone that is smart and well liked in baseball.  It’s a shame that Trout doesn’t seem to be that guy.  I don’t know that Salmon is.  I also see guys clamoring for Erstad to be Manager. 
 

I wish they could build a foundation off of guys committed to the club in the past, but maybe those people just don’t exist and their limits are the accouncers booth. 
 

baylor always seems like that one guy and Fregosi before him. But they didn’t walk away with championships either.  
 

I hate to say this because I disliked the guy so much but maybe they should have just plugged through with Sosh. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by The Ghost of Bob Starr

[Inside Pitch]

8 minutes ago, Hubs said:

I mean, he doesn't get into defensive alignments in the book. And I agree, his defensive alignments sucked with the Shift etc. 

But it does talk about Bullpen Matrixes and Minasian having a locker in the locker room. I think it was personality more than analytics. 

Convenient how he doesn't go into things that we could easily prove as BS but does go into a matrix nobody has any insight into and he can paint the picture he wants.

Joe Maddon's biggest advocate is Joe Maddon.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

13 minutes ago, Hubs said:

I mean, he doesn't get into defensive alignments in the book. And I agree, his defensive alignments sucked with the Shift etc. 

But it does talk about Bullpen Matrixes and Minasian having a locker in the locker room. I think it was personality more than analytics. 

Defensive alignment goes hand in hand with also pitching that hits their spots consistently to get the desired outcome.... Of a hitter hitting into the shift... IF your pitchers miss their spot, elevate, or don't execute then you are left high and dry.

Which if your pitching analytics don't jive with what your trying to do defensively. Now your screwed again. IF they say this count slider down and away to a right handed hitter and your playing them to pull and they shoot it to right field because you got too much plate or it's elevated. It breaks your shift.

[Hubs]

1 minute ago, Inside Pitch said:

Convenient how he doesn't go into things that we could easily prove as BS but does go into a matrix nobody has any insight into and he can paint the picture he wants.

Joe Maddon's biggest advocate is Joe Maddon.

You're showing your bias here as someone who wants to think Maddon's full of shit and Minasian is telling the truth. I am showing mine saying that Minasian is full of shit and I believe Maddon.

[mmc]

2 minutes ago, Hubs said:

You're showing your bias here as someone who wants to think Maddon's full of shit and Minasian is telling the truth. I am showing mine saying that Minasian is full of shit and I believe Maddon.

Only one guy has shown that he believes his ego transcends both the team he manages and the game of baseball itself 

[Hubs]

Just now, mmc said:

Only one guy has shown that he believes his ego transcends both the team he manages and the game of baseball itself 

Perry?

 

[Stradling]

4 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Perry?

 

No. 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

32 minutes ago, The Ghost of Bob Starr said:

I don’t pay attention enough to know whether PM sucks or not at his job. I’m pretty convinced Artie sucks. Nevin, he was probably in over his head.  
 

the org has problems. I don’t know if PM is the right guy.  He doesn’t do anything for me, but with the carousel of GMs and managers in the last several years, I’m not upset he’s in for another year.  
 

inwish the angels had someone that is smart and well liked in baseball.  It’s a shame that Trout doesn’t seem to be that guy.  I don’t know that Salmon is.  I also see guys clamoring for Erstad to be Manager. 
 

I wish they could build a foundation off of guys committed to the club in the past, but maybe those people just don’t exist and their limits are the accouncers booth. 
 

baylor always seems like that one guy and Fregosi before him. But they didn’t walk away with championships either.  
 

I hate to say this because I disliked the guy so much but maybe they should have just plugged through with Sosh. 

I think the players that were mentioned came up through Autry, or played through Disney and then left during Moreno's ownership.

As the ownership was diluted you had situations changing and Ownership who pushed for a different situations and a change in Organizational Philosophy.

Which has now been diluted down again as we've had the numerous Managing and GM changes. Even Mead is gone. Is there anyone left that has any serious time with ownership? Is Stoneman still an adviser part-time?

[Angels 1961]

1 hour ago, Dtwncbad said:

You complain about the complaining and then proceed to complain the same complaint you have complained about already 500 times.

You are a gem.

I speak the truth about this team.

[The Ghost of Bob Starr]

4 minutes ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

I think the players that were mentioned came up through Autry, or played through Disney and then left during Moreno's ownership.

As the ownership was diluted you had situations changing and Ownership who pushed for a different situations and a change in Organizational Philosophy.

Which has no been diluted down again as we've had the numerous Managing changes.

Again. It’s a real shame.  The last 20 years or maybe 17-18 have just been a blur.  Sadly, Trout and Ohtabi were gifts that were the lipstick on the pig of this team. 
 

I am hoping these young guys can be the guys and we don’t have to rely on Rendon type deals anymore. 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

1 minute ago, The Ghost of Bob Starr said:

Again. It’s a real shame.  The last 20 years or maybe 17-18 have just been a blur.  Sadly, Trout and Ohtabi were gifts that were the lipstick on the pig of this team. 
 

I am hoping these young guys can be the guys and we don’t have to rely on Rendon type deals anymore. 

I'm hopeful, but there will still be the need for the high profile player acquisition. Whether a Middle of the Order Bat, a TORA, etc. The hope is your guys you have coming up as a collective can protect and produce to cover each other statistically speaking.

The issue will always be health and participation first, then output or #'s.

 

[Inside Pitch]

47 minutes ago, Hubs said:

You're showing your bias here as someone who wants to think Maddon's full of shit and Minasian is telling the truth. I am showing mine saying that Minasian is full of shit and I believe Maddon.

You're projecting again.   

I've not actually offered any opinion on Minasian and whether he's full of shit or not. In fact I'm not aware of anything he's said about Maddon other than when he said he knows he's selling a book. The one thing I've been VERY complimentary of Minasian for is having assembled a good group of people around him, much better than either Eppler or JD did when they were GM.

Like I said, I watched Maddon DAILY when he managed TB. I listened to his post game comments, his pre-game comments -- all of it, can you say the same?  

Nobody does better PR for Maddon than Joe Maddon. 

[Inside Pitch]

56 minutes ago, Hubs said:

You're showing your bias here as someone who wants to think Maddon's full of shit and Minasian is telling the truth. I am showing mine saying that Minasian is full of shit and I believe Maddon.

I don't think Maddon is a liar, but his ego is out there. A lot of manager/coaches tend to be, but his basically trying to go against baseball because he thinks it should be played one way was pure hubris.

I think the game is worse off than it was, but I'm not trying to be it's gatekeeper, Im a fan who wants to see their team win and realizes you have to play within the landscape set before you.  Again, it's like taking a knife to a gunfight and arguing that it's better if the other guy had a knife despite you having had the option of using a gun.

[Hubs]

Just now, Inside Pitch said:

You're projecting again.   

I've not actually offered any opinion on Minasian and whether he's full of shit or not. In fact I'm not aware of anything he's said about Maddon other than when he said he knows he's selling a book. The one thing I've been VERY complimentary of Minasian for is having assembled a good group of people around him, much better than either Eppler or JD did when they were GM.

Like I said, I watched Maddon DAILY when he managed TB. I listened to his post game comments, his pre-game comments -- all of it, can you say the same?  

Nobody does better PR for Maddon than Joe Maddon. 

Ok. I accept this. 

I just see a first time GM with three poor years wanting a scape goat and a lot of posters who want to believe him. 

I see a three time manager of the year and a lifer coach who came up with the Angels saying he overreached and overstepped. I see other things being reported and other moves that make me think this was all true.

Bottom line is results. Eppler and Minasian havent gotten results. Neither has Scioscia in his last three years, Ausmus in his one, Maddon in his two and a half, or Nevin in his 1 and half.

I don't think keeping Minasian is the right move. Hiring a new GM who hires his own Manager is the way to go. 

The organization badly needs new blood, and it's why I've been harping for a new President of Baseball Ops / Part owner to let Moreno fade into the background where he'd much rather be.

They need to reinvest in so many areas from staff and analytics to coaching to equipment and travel and nutrition, and media savvy, and the spring training contract, all while maintaining a top 10 payroll and somehow building a new stadium.

People all seem to dislike Arte, and while I've always been ambivalent about him, I do think it's Time for new blood.

I hope he sells, and the new owner brings in an entirely new team.

[Angels 1961]

Bottom line for me this team a new direction to go in. Ohtani will be gone and I would see if Trout would want to be traded. Rendon's contract 3 more years halos stuck with that. Save some money on Trout's contract maybe send 75 to 85 mill to new team. Try and add some more young players to go with what halos have. Baltimore turned it around in 4 years and I think Angel's can also. Growing pains in next 2 to 3 years but something has to change from last 8 years.

[Inside Pitch]

On 10/4/2023 at 7:51 PM, Hubs said:

Ok. I accept this. 

I just see a first time GM with three poor years wanting a scape goat and a lot of posters who want to believe him. 

Got any examples of him scapegoating Maddon?   Can you point to something he put on Joe directly?  He fired him, did he shit on him publicly as he did?

Whats this belief based on?

Also -- how can you really hold the moves he made those first two years against him when he basically acquired the guys Maddon wanted?   Are you really going to say that Minasian year three and Minasian years 1+2 operated the same exact way?

Do you doubt that Maddon had a great deal of influence with Arte?

On 10/4/2023 at 7:51 PM, Hubs said:

I see a three time manager of the year and a lifer coach who came up with the Angels saying he overreached and overstepped. I see other things being reported and other moves that make me think this was all true.

I hear Martha Stewart was a babe at one time, that's not who she is currently.   

Can you you go tell your boss to go pound sand?  If your boss was told his livelihood depended on your performance do you think he'd just shrug and let you do whatever you want?

On 10/4/2023 at 7:51 PM, Hubs said:

Bottom line is results. Eppler and Minasian havent gotten results. Neither has Scioscia in his last three years, Ausmus in his one, Maddon in his two and a half, or Nevin in his 1 and half.

Ausmus was IMO the most bland manager the Angels have had and couldn't tell you what he did well or did poorly during his Angels tenure because it wasn't long enough and it was as meh as meh can get. 

Mostly I think he handled the Skaggs situation about as well as anyone could have and that he got the short end of the stick.  Like pretty much everyone else you mention here save for Maddon, Ausmus was a victim to Arte and his whims.  Maddon meanwhile was the beneficiary of those same whims.

On 10/4/2023 at 7:51 PM, Hubs said:

I don't think keeping Minasian is the right move. Hiring a new GM who hires his own Manager is the way to go. 

How much does his having fired Maddon factor into this belief?  Did you think Maddon was doing a great job managing and he was crippled by Minasian?  

On 10/4/2023 at 7:51 PM, Hubs said:

The organization badly needs new blood, and it's why I've been harping for a new President of Baseball Ops / Part owner to let Moreno fade into the background where he'd much rather be.

I don't get the fascination with titles.  I just don't. Reminds me of Kevin Malone sticking his chest out and proclaiming there was a new sheriff in town when he got the Dodgers job.  Best I can tell teams promote guys in large part to try to keep guys they don't want to lose because baseball doesn't like to impede people's progress professionally.  And fans talking about there needing new blood is IMO no different than people talking about "Change" during political campaigns -- it's a broad statement that says nothing at all but pretends to have depth to it.

There are things modern baseball teams do that increases their chances of winning.  Both Eppler and now Minasian have attempted to move the Angels in that direction.  If someone has any real insight into things they could have done and chose not to -- I'd love to hear it but unfortunately I think they have both had to operate with one hand tied behind their backs.

On 10/4/2023 at 7:51 PM, Hubs said:

They need to reinvest in so many areas from staff and analytics to coaching to equipment and travel and nutrition, and media savvy, and the spring training contract, all while maintaining a top 10 payroll and somehow building a new stadium.

Eppler created an analytics department where none existed and then was unable to grow it.  He also jumped back into Latin America after there having been next to nothing there -- fault him for failing to do well but there was a renewed effort there after nothing for almost a decade.  It's hard to argue that Minasian hasn't taken what Eppler started and added to it or installed better/more people in those areas-- do I think he's added as much as he would have liked to?  NOPE.

They could play at La Palma Park on the corner of La Palma and Harbor if they actually did the things that it takes to win.  A new or updated stadium would be nice but I think everyone on this board would risk sitting on  broken glass if it meant the Angels were actually good again.

On 10/4/2023 at 7:51 PM, Hubs said:

People all seem to dislike Arte, and while I've always been ambivalent about him, I do think it's Time for new blood.

I hope he sells, and the new owner brings in an entirely new team.

This isn't meant as a slight on you or anyone.  I don't allow myself to get too deep into the Arte BS because it's a useless situation for us.  My only hope is that something has clicked and he allows his baseball people to work, because I don't think it will matter who is running the show or what their title is if Arte continues to pull the strings or limit what his baseball ops people can do.

[Blarg]

1 hour ago, Hubs said:

You're showing your bias here as someone who wants to think Maddon's full of shit and Minasian is telling the truth. I am showing mine saying that Minasian is full of shit and I believe Maddon.

Baseball Savant pretty much showed, on a game by game basis in real time, that Maddon was full of shit. @Inside Pitch lured me into the mental trap of following the game and Savant and could see that any given defensive alignment was pretty much doomed from the start and specifically if a shift was incorporated. I think I lasted five games doing this excercise of poke yourself in the eye before I gave up. 

[Inside Pitch]

1 minute ago, Blarg said:

Baseball Savant pretty much showed, on a game by game basis in real time, that Maddon was full of shit. @Inside Pitch lured me into the mental trap of following the game and Savant and could see that any given defensive alignment was pretty much doomed from the start and specifically if a shift was incorporated. I think I lasted five games doing this excercise of poke yourself in the eye before I gave up. 

I never did apologize.  Also, it's true -- misery loves company.  

I started doing that shit in year one.  How I managed to keep from stabbing someone is beyond me.  

[tdawg87]

That was shit you didn't even need Baseball Savant to see how bad it was. It just confirmed what your eyes and brain saw. 

It was like he was actually deliberately going against the scouting because he didn't like it. 

[Stradling]

Yep I didn’t even last more than a few games on savant. Not to mention back to back nights of Thaiss playing positions he’d never played before and him making errors in both games costing us those games. 
I’ve said this many times that I thought Maddon was a more personable Scioscia, then I watched him manage and I feel awful for disparaging Sosh like that. 

[Inside Pitch]

15 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

That was shit you didn't even need Baseball Savant to see how bad it was. It just confirmed what your eyes and brain saw. 

It was like he was actually deliberately going against the scouting because he didn't like it. 

Bro..  The role reason I started doing it was because it seemed so obvious I needed to see if it was in my head.  Then it became, well maybe it's a fluke and I'm just catching it on a bad day so I kept at it (stage 2).

Stage two lasted for about 18 months.  Then I told @Blarg, he lost his mind and I felt better.

God Bless America!

[Blarg]

The brain scars are still tender. 

[Slegnaac]

4 hours ago, Stradling said:

I stated that when Joe left last year the pitching and defense improved.  

Correlation does not always imply causation.