What is the recipe for long term success?

[halodground]

Anyone else remember that feeling, circa 2005, that the Angels had finally figured things out? A solid rotation, dominant bullpen, just enough offense, and a steady pipeline of talent from the minor league system seemed like a great way to be competitive, year in and year out. And it worked for a solid 6-7 years then totally went to shit. It’s really been 14 seasons of futility now (let’s just call 2014 an outlier), approaching the abyss of 1987-2001 for sucking and ineptitude. But likely more frustrating due to the presence of not one, but two generational talents for a significant chunk of the time. What did Bill Stoneman have that the following GMs lacked? Or is it just Arte Moreno? Can we get back to being a quality franchise? Is it just terrible luck? It’s tough to be a proud Angels fan. Again.

[Torridd]

Hard question that all MLB management juggles with. I really don't know. I don't like to use the phrase "bad luck" but it's pretty bizarre how a midlevel to high payroll team like the Angels have been so bad for so long. I hope Ohtani resigns with us because that's the impetus for a lot of change. 

[mmc]

A proper teardown, prospect pool/payroll resetting rebuild

[AngelsFaninGA]

Having an owner not named Arte Moreno

[gurn67]

11 minutes ago, AngelsFaninGA said:

Having an owner not named Arte Moreno

I like when people say the new owner could be worse. Well, 28 other teams have made the post season in the last 8 years. So, I don't know how the new owner could be any worse unless they want to move the team out of SoCal.

[halodground]

25 minutes ago, Torridd said:

Hard question that all MLB management juggles with. I really don't know. I don't like to use the phrase "bad luck" but it's pretty bizarre how a midlevel to high payroll team like the Angels have been so bad for so long. I hope Ohtani resigns with us because that's the impetus for a lot of change. 

I’m on the fence on resigning Ohtani. Short term it’s a no brainer but scares me longer term. Some of that is being gun shy from our recent long term deals, but so few actually work out well for any team, and there is double risk with Ohtani since you are paying him and counting on him to excel as a pitcher and hitter. I lean more toward the “tear the whole thing down” plan most of the time, but I don’t have a lot of confidence in the Angels to do that right, especially after missing out on the opportunity to reload with an Ohtani trade. Plus Trout probably never sees the postseason in that scenario, and almost certainly not as an elite player.

[Dtwncbad]

19 minutes ago, mmc said:

A proper teardown, prospect pool/payroll resetting rebuild

You don’t need a “teardown” to just function properly in drafting and developing players.

A mid or small market team without a core of young players should probably “teardown” what they have to maximize the prospect talent they can control going forward.

A big market team already with a pretty decent core of young players doesn’t need a “teardown.”

They just need to consistently draft well and develop players well.

 

[Lazorko Saves]

24 minutes ago, mmc said:

A proper teardown

So...trade Neto for a younger, less proven shortstop currently in single-A?

Then trade O'Hoppe for a catcher in Rookie ball?

Trade Sandoval, Canning, Silseth, and Detmers for a haul of B-level pitching prospects?

Those are our highest value tradeable assets, so if we don't do the above, what are we tearing down?

Edited August 8, 2023 by Lazorko Saves

[floplag]

From here out, there are two paths i see.

#1 blow it up, rebuild, trade everyone, be terrible for 5 years or more and them come back with a vengeance.. the Hou/Bal/everyone else models weve seen in the last 20 years. 

#2 Go full Cohen.  Do what the Mets or Padres have done in recent years.  No, there is certainly no guarantees but its the only way this club become relevant  in the next few years.  Resign Ohtani, stop worrying about the lux tax, go full ham and bite the bullet for the next 3-5 years tax wise.  

Weve tried the in between thing for the last how many years and its an epic failure.  All weve achieved is being about a 500 team with a terrible farm.  There is no defending what we have done, the facts speak for themselves. 

[ELEVEN]

Step one:

Sell the team to someone else.

[Second Base]

Throw a crap ton of money into the farm and wait. 

[Jason]

Just now, Second Base said:

Throw a crap ton of money into the farm and wait. 

100% this. The organizational focus needs to be on scouting, drafting and development. Mix in the occasional big name free agent and things may turn around. 

[BTH]

A new owner is step one.

[Dtwncbad]

9 minutes ago, floplag said:

From here out, there are two paths i see.

That’s the real problem.

[Dtwncbad]

16 minutes ago, Lazorko Saves said:

So...trade Neto for a younger, less proven shortstop currently in single-A?

Then trade O'Hoppe for a catcher in Rookie ball?

Trade Sandoval, Canning, Silseth, and Detmers for a haul of B-level pitching prospects?

Those are our highest value tradeable assets, so if we don't do the above, what are we tearing down?

Don’t be silly.  Come on don’t you get it?  The Angels should have traded Moustakas, Fletcher, Wallach and Rendon’s contract for like 4 or 5 of these guys:

[Angel Oracle]

Tying up $550 million in a soon to be 30 year-old seems to have disappointment written all over it, even for a unicorn.

How much longer can he excel at both pitching and hitting?   Three years tops?

I do wonder if the Ohtanimania has been a little bit of a distraction.

How about this.

Let someone like Cohen pay the $550 million.

Sign Yamamoto (no draft pick lost?) and re-sign Grichuk, Moose, Cron, Lopez, Moore, and Leone.

Not sure yet about Giolito, need to see more.

Should still be some $5-10 million under the tax threshold.

Yamamoto, Detmers, Sandoval, Silseth, Canning, Anderson 

Lopez, Moore, Estevez, Soriano, Bachman, Joyce, Leone, and someone like Diaz or Barria for long innings

Hopefully the AA pitchers all mature next season for decent enough depth.

Hope that DH’ing keeps Glass Rendon healthy and hitting for just enough power, and also rotate Trout as DH sometimes.

Neto, Trout, Moose, Drury, Moniak/Ward, Rendon, Grichuk, Cron, O’Hoppe, with Rengifo super utility guy 

In other words, bring back all acquisitions except Escobar, only add one key newcomer.

Have a little continuity, continue to draft solidly enough, and develop solidly enough.

And hire a new pitching coach.

[T-angel]

The team is soft, and lacks a winning identity. The beginning of our 2002 championship team started in the 90's when there was criticism leveled about the Angels being the team that too often was happy to get along but were not supremely competitive and did not hate to lose. Fair or not, the team started to remake themselves when guys like Darin Erstad, Troy Glaus, Troy Percival, Scott Spezio, Frankie Rodriguez, John Lackey, et al were added. Those guys made no apologies for running a guy over at the plate, plunking a guy in retaliation, looking their competition in the eyes and saying I'll go as far as charging the mound to show you I'm here to take this win from you. I can't say the same about this team. Sure most of the things I pointed out are not allowed by the rule book currently, but there are teams that walk the fine line between following the rules and breaking the rules to win and the Angels aren't even one of those teams. 

Whatever the solution is, whether its getting the right players, or the right leadership/coaches; the decision makers have to take care of the attitude and identity as well. You know I always hear stuff from the Angels like: "There's no group of guys that want to win more than the guys in that locker room" or "This is the best clubhouse I've ever been a part of". It makes me want to throw up. 

Its obvious by now there are people who want to win and then there are people that will die to do it; and the results and actions on and off the field show that this Angels team is comprised mostly of personnel that fall in the first category. And we shouldn't give a rats ass about whether everyone is nice to each other and gets along to form a great clubhouse if you aren't winning. This team has the talent.  For heavens sake, we have two of the best players of all the time on the team with a cast full of first round picks and great baseball skills and one of the highest payrolls in the game. Acquiring talent hasn't been the greatest issue. 

But.... the season isn't over yet. This team can still prove that they are better than recent results. They don't have to make the playoffs for me, but show me you want it more than the other team. That would at least tell me whether wholesale changes need to be made or not. At this point it looks like the Angels will miss the playoffs, and I don't expect Nevin and Wise to be back with the team. I think Minasian gets the axe as well, although part of me hopes he is retained and given a chance to really start from ground zero.

 

[Farmbuildingfan]

31 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Don’t be silly.  Come on don’t you get it?  The Angels should have traded Moustakas, Fletcher, Wallach and Rendon’s contract for like 4 or 5 of these guys:

A trade like this would only work if you had a Moreno clone on the other side.

[floplag]

44 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

That’s the real problem.

meaning?

[Dtwncbad]

11 minutes ago, floplag said:

meaning?

You only see drastic, extreme options.

I suppose if you get hungry your only two options are to dine at French Laundry tonight for $800 a person or to start dragging the back yard to drop some seed to farm vegetables.

The Angel fans have gone through some relatively miserable years.  The frustration is valid.

But that doesn’t mean the only options are to do drastic things.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Dtwncbad

[jsnpritchett]

29 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Sign Yamamoto (no draft pick lost?) and re-sign Grichuk, Moose, Cron, Lopez, Moore, and Leone.

 

I'm going to continue to ask this when people mention these guys: why do you want to re-sign this exact group of guys?  Is it just because they're here and you're familiar with them? What has Grichuk shown to make you think he'd be a good option next year?  Same for Cron.  He's been below replacement level this year.

I implore people to think more outside the box and not just say, "Hey, let's bring back the same group of cast-offs that got us nowhere this year."

[floplag]

8 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

You only see drastic, extreme options.

I suppose if you get hungry your only two options are to dine at French Laundry tonight for $800 a person or to start dragging the back yard to drop some seed to farm vegetables.

The Angel fans have gone through some relatively miserable years.  The frustration is valid.

But that doesn’t mean the only options are to do drastic things.

Then offer up another answer.
You cant have it both ways, playing the middle has brought us to this point... weve failed at every aspect of it. 
You want another option, great, lets hear it but if it involved more of the same count me out. 

[Dtwncbad]

4 minutes ago, floplag said:

Then offer up another answer.
You cant have it both ways, playing the middle has brought us to this point... weve failed at every aspect of it. 
You want another option, great, lets hear it but if it involved more of the same count me out. 

Go forward with the good group of young players they have now, and carefully supplement that core with smart free agent signings.

And keep drafting and developing players so that the core continues to improve in quality and quantity.

This is happening now but you are too rattled to recognize it.

This is not “more of the same” or “playing the middle.”

It’s the right strategy.  The difference in outcome is the execution of the strategy and good decision making within that strategy, not the strategy itself.

[floplag]

6 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Go forward with the good group of young players they have now, and carefully supplement that core with smart free agent signings.

And keep drafting and developing players so that the core continues to improve in quality and quantity.

This is happening now but you are too rattled to recognize it.

This is not “more of the same” or “playing the middle.”

It’s the right strategy.  The difference in outcome is the execution of the strategy and good decision making within that strategy, not the strategy itself.

So... more of the same.
No im not rattled, its been proven a failed approach.
Weve done that for the last how many years now?   What have we achieved?  If anything weve gone backwards.
Are you aware of one of the modern definitions of insanity about doing the same thing expecting a different result?

[Dtwncbad]

19 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

I'm going to continue to ask this when people mention these guys: why do you want to re-sign this exact group of guys?  Is it just because they're here and you're familiar with them? What has Grichuk shown to make you think he'd be a good option next year?  Same for Cron.  He's been below replacement level this year.

I implore people to think more outside the box and not just say, "Hey, let's bring back the same group of cast-offs that got us nowhere this year."

That’s fine but then tell me why it is better to fill those roles with different players, just for the sake of not bringing back the same players?

The team has to win more games.  I am not seeing the problem with winning more games being on the backs of the role players.  They seem to be OK.

I think this year’s team will miss the playoffs because of a massive amount of injuries and a couple of bad runs (which do just happen sometimes).

I don’t really care if that exact group comes back or not but I am just saying they don’t, to me anyway, seem to be the problem.