Albert vs the other legacy legends

[ten ocho recon scout]

every day at my gym, theres an old dodger game on. (I guess the dodger channel has it on schedule). Usually its the previous nights game, but todays was, for some reason, an old game between us and them, circa whenever victorino was here. 

(I did a double take seeing callaspo and howie as dodgers before i figured out it was years ago)

Two things stood out.

First, how much slimmer pujols was even just a few years ago. Didnt look "fit", but compares to recent years, looked like an athlete.

But what really stood out was watching a game, and it looked like the game we all grew up with.

Meaning, EVERY at bat, the defense was playing normal. 

Today, literally every AB, 8 guys are shifted to an extreme.

And now that we're a few years in, youd think batters would exploit that. But no...

And then it hits you... how effective the shift it. Youd think guys would love it, and doing singles in these huge gaps.

But they cant.

The shift came from the knowledge of knowing that. And not simply "this guy likes to pull the ball." Its "every player hits it this way, and they cant help themselves"

As bad as albert has been the past few years, and as bad as he looks compared to the old greats, you have to wonder how they would have aged in this environment.

I argue a lot that the old legacy guys should have an asterisk. Yes, they were great. Yes, they were the best of the time, which is what matters.

But I also believe it should be noted how much harder the game has become. With relievers, better competition, etc etc. 

And when you think back at these old GOAT names from the 40s, 50s, 60s etc, you have to wonder what their numbers would have been when they saw 5 pitchers a game, guys throwing upper 90s almost every pitch, and a smaller field (with the defense shifted)

Im not saying in time the shift wont be beaten. I imagine younger players are being taught that now, and hopefully, athletic guys who can spray the ball and run will become the norm. 

But seeing as how a few years into this era, the majority of guys still have problems with it... makes you think that would have been the same if this era happened in any decade.

And i assume pujols would have ended with better results had he started his career 5-100 years sooner than he did.

[JustATroutFan]

Pujols had an advantage that many sluggers (Aaron, Mays, etc) didn't have, which is most of Pujols' prime years (2001-2009) were in the steroids era (juiced baseballs, expansion teams, etc). That's like the best hitting era ever in MLB history. So Pujols' career slash line were a bit inflated, probably. While guys like Aaron and Mays had the advantage of getting to face starting pitchers a fourth time in many games, most of their prime years were during dominant pitching seasons. It is what it is. 

[totdprods]

9 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

The shift came from the knowledge of knowing that. And not simply "this guy likes to pull the ball." Its "every player hits it this way, and they cant help themselves"

This sums it all up. Most of these guys have spent their whole life hitting a certain way that got them to where they are. While they have to be adaptable to a degree, they’re still relying on the same set of skills that got them to the majors. Some of it is pride, some of it is stubbornness, some of it is difficulty in completely reinventing yourself - something that has worked for you - when you’re likely in the grips of a decline already. It’s rough. 

Calhoun was a great, vivid example of this. Once teams figured out how to play him, the shift killed him, and he had to become a completely different hitter to overcome that.

I still feel that Pujols was aware of this enough to know he simply couldn’t change who he was at this point and become a guy who slapped singles the other way without completely breaking everything that he knew he could do. He just couldn’t. He chose a path he thought he could stick with, it didn’t work out. What’s to say changing his approach would have done any better? One could look at Miggy and perhaps see an alternate reality Pujols that was able to hit for average still, but lost so much power that he became just as useless, clogging the bases even more. Hard to say.

[ten ocho recon scout]

4 minutes ago, JustATroutFan said:

Pujols had an advantage that many sluggers (Aaron, Mays, etc) didn't have, which is most of Pujols' prime years (2001-2009) were in the steroids era (juiced baseballs, expansion teams, etc). That's like the best hitting era ever in MLB history. So Pujols' career slash line were a bit inflated, probably. While guys like Aaron and Mays had the advantage of getting to face starting pitchers a fourth time in many games, most of their prime years were during dominant pitching seasons. It is what it is. 

Yeah, thats a fair point. And I agree. But its also up in the air, based on whether or not pujols was juicing. (Who knows)

But id counter that the old school guys were popping amphetamines like candy... theres that, too

And then the part where the pitchers were also on the gear, in the steroid era.

All eras have their pros and cons. But i think juice or not, with todays game being so much more scouted, so much better pitching, and the shift, its the toughest the game has ever been for a hitter.

So we're clear, im not saying pujols would have ended as Mays. Almost nobody will. But i bet in the simplest number terms, he likely is top 10 in hits... easy to envision without covid and the shift, another 100 hits at this point.

[ten ocho recon scout]

I always use MMA to make points, since I know it better than baseball

But essentially, the greats of the past were kickboxers... sport karate. "Full contact", to a degree for sure, and badasses. But when Rick Roufas (who was a legend) finally agreed to fight a Thai with Thai rules, it all got exposed.

The shift is like leg kicks... the old chuck norris, bill wallace era guys never had to worry about that. And it changed everything. And unless you start your career with that in mind, youre not just gonna learn it later... it changes every mechanic you know

[JustATroutFan]

1 minute ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Yeah, thats a fair point. And I agree. But its also up in the air, based on whether or not pujols was juicing. (Who knows)

But id counter that the old school guys were popping amphetamines like candy... theres that, too

And then the part where the pitchers were also on the gear, in the steroid era.

All eras have their pros and cons. But i think juice or not, with todays game being so much more scouted, so much better pitching, and the shift, its the toughest the game has ever been for a hitter.

So we're clear, im not saying pujols would have ended as Mays. Almost nobody will. But i bet in the simplest number terms, he likely is top 10 in hits... easy to envision without covid and the shift, another 100 hits at this point.

Steroids in MLB were illegal starting in 1991. I remember guys like Aaron using that stuff but that was before it was deemed illegal. I'm not sure if better stuff equals better pitching. Some pitchers have great stuff but they can't locate their pitches the way Maddux did. I would argue that the 1960's, 1970's, and 1980's (outside of the juiced baseball season of 1987) were tougher eras to hit in than the 2000s despite more pitchers throwing hard in the 2000s. The first half of the 2010s were all dominant pitching seasons (2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015). That makes someone who put up many great seasons at the plate like Miggy and Trout did even more impressive. 2018 was also a good season for pitchers to pitch in. And it's looking like 2021 is on track to be another 1968 or 2014 where pitchers have the upper hand on hitters. So I guess you could also say that Pujols' career slash line is a little bit skewed up by the fact that most of the seasons where he was still playing in the Major Leagues after 2009 were in tough hitting environment. After 2009, Pujols had one more elite hitting season in 2010, one very good hitting season in 2011, and one solid season with the bat in 2012. Then the decline really hit him hard. 

[Lou]

9 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I always use MMA to make points, since I know it better than baseball

My favorite part about MMA is when a fighter is being announced and they say: "HALL OF FAMER...."

then they put up his 18-12 record.

[totdprods]

10 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I always use MMA to make points, since I know it better than baseball

But essentially, the greats of the past were kickboxers... sport karate. "Full contact", to a degree for sure, and badasses. But when Rick Roufas (who was a legend) finally agreed to fight a Thai with Thai rules, it all got exposed.

The shift is like leg kicks... the old chuck norris, bill wallace era guys never had to worry about that. And it changed everything. And unless you start your career with that in mind, youre not just gonna learn it later... it changes every mechanic you know

Exactly. You can do more damage trying to change your entire approach, and it’s especially risky if you’re already physically declining, under scrutiny, or producing enough in your own ‘delusional’ mind to justify staying on track. 

That’s why overall, this is just sad.

[ten ocho recon scout]

9 minutes ago, Lou said:

My favorite part about MMA is when a fighter is being announced and they say: "HALL OF FAMER...."

then they put up his 18-12 record.

Its crazy how small the window is in MMA. The margin of error between great and done is maybe 5 years.

Before that CTE ruins them...

[failos]

You should go to a different gym

[ten ocho recon scout]

8 minutes ago, failos said:

You should go to a different gym

I go to a few. 

Dodgers aside, I cant quit this one. Has the most strippers the time Im there.

With covid masks its like being at a strip club in saudi arabia, but still.

[Lou]

53 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I go to a few. 

Dodgers aside, I cant quit this one. Has the most strippers the time Im there.

With covid masks its like being at a strip club in saudi arabia, but still.

recon makin' it rain Riyals! 

[Reveille1984]

I don't see the shift issue being remedied unless the league does something to mitigate it.  Defenders are better and more athletic than ever, and every pitcher is seemingly throwing 95 MPH heat.  This is on top of the other issues mentioned about the difficulty in changing your hitting approach on the fly at the major league level.  Every time I hear someone say "why don't they just hit it to the other side!? It's so obvious!" I want to slap them.  

It's not really surprising to see the three true outcome hitting approach getting worse every year as well.  Every five minutes Gubi is shoving launch angles and exit velocity down your throat like the front office is docking his salary unless it's brought up 20 times a broadcast.

[JustATroutFan]

1 hour ago, Reveille1984 said:

I don't see the shift issue being remedied unless the league does something to mitigate it.  Defenders are better and more athletic than ever, and every pitcher is seemingly throwing 95 MPH heat.  This is on top of the other issues mentioned about the difficulty in changing your hitting approach on the fly at the major league level.  Every time I hear someone say "why don't they just hit it to the other side!? It's so obvious!" I want to slap them.  

It's not really surprising to see the three true outcome hitting approach getting worse every year as well.  Every five minutes Gubi is shoving launch angles and exit velocity down your throat like the front office is docking his salary unless it's brought up 20 times a broadcast.

If I was a hitter, I would rather face a 95 MPH fastball that will be thrown over the heart of the plate than a well-located 92-93 MPH fastball that is well-located at the bottom of the strike zone, especially those on the outside part of the plate. When a hitter knows a pitch is going to be coming at 95 MPH and over the heart of the plate, they can hit it. A lot of hitters would give up on it (well-located fastball) because it looks like a ball but it ends up being in the lower part of the strike zone. Maddux made a living off those, same with Kluber. And Weaver. Many strikeout machines like Stanton, Gallo, and Sano grew up watching the steroid era where guys were hitting home runs. If they were inspired by it, it would not be shocking to me. Velocity has something to do with it but it has more to do with guys just falling in love with the long ball. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 hour ago, Lou said:

recon makin' it rain Riyals! 

I used to roll my eyes at the old dude at the gym, w no shame, who used to follow the young chicks at the gym.

Now Im him

Instagram made every chick want to grow an ass. They squat more than the guys.

I put out a picnic blanket, and sip on a lemonade. Just observing. No shame

With age comes acceptance. Acceptance here is everyone else at the gym going "well, fuck. Hes old. Let him have his moment"

[JustATroutFan]

It's shocking that we have not been talking about how the marine layer affected Pujols when he was with the Angels. I'm sure there were many times where Pujols thought he had a home run but the ball just died at the warning track at Angel Stadium. Aaron didn't have to be worrying about the marine layer too many times compared to Pujols. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 hour ago, Reveille1984 said:

I don't see the shift issue being remedied unless the league does something to mitigate it.  Defenders are better and more athletic than ever, and every pitcher is seemingly throwing 95 MPH heat.  This is on top of the other issues mentioned about the difficulty in changing your hitting approach on the fly at the major league level.  Every time I hear someone say "why don't they just hit it to the other side!? It's so obvious!" I want to slap them.  

It's not really surprising to see the three true outcome hitting approach getting worse every year as well.  Every five minutes Gubi is shoving launch angles and exit velocity down your throat like the front office is docking his salary unless it's brought up 20 times a broadcast.

The dodger game i watched earlier. At least 3 hits I saw, I swore were outs. 

Then they got through

Because theres 90 feet between bags.

Thats why all these dudes swing out of their socks now... every swing is for a home run.

Because base hits are rare now

 

#launchangle

[JustATroutFan]

11 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

The dodger game i watched earlier. At least 3 hits I saw, I swore were outs. 

Then they got through

Because theres 90 feet between bags.

Thats why all these dudes swing out of their socks now... every swing is for a home run.

Because base hits are rare now

 

#launchangle

I remember the Dodgers were striking out a whole bunch of times against the Astros during the 2017 World Series. That is not going to get it done in the postseason. Runs are harder to come by because pitching is better. An extra 90 feet increases the stress pitchers. That was a big reason as to why they lost. I know what the Dodgers fans will blame on for why they lost the 2017 World Series. And I don't care. I did shit back during my school years like cheating and wasn't caught many times. 

[PattyD22]

2 hours ago, Lou said:

My favorite part about MMA is when a fighter is being announced and they say: "HALL OF FAMER...."

I like when Bruce Buffer announces the fighting style of an MMA fighter.

”Out of the blue corner, a Street Fighter.......”. What?  A Street Fighter?  That’s like fighting a fucking feral cat.

Left handing pitching is the Angels street fighter, or feral cat.

[Blarg]

2 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I cant quit this one. Has the most strippers the time Im there.

Okay, spill it. Where is this place I suddenly feel the need to get in shape. 

[failos]

^^^Tell us where this gym is at, TORS. Hopefully it isn’t in Yorba Linda, though

[beatlesrule]

3 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I go to a few. 

Dodgers aside, I cant quit this one. Has the most strippers the time Im there.

With covid masks its like being at a strip club in saudi arabia, but still.

These kind

or these kind

?

 

[ten ocho recon scout]

Ill say this. In the past few months, theres been a handful of chicks i thought were old, that dropped the mask for water and were like, you know, 36, but banging

 

So covid masks are like christmas presents. Lots of excitement... wondering whats in that box

[T.G.]

41 minutes ago, Blarg said:

Okay, spill it. Where is this place I suddenly feel the need to get in shape. 

 

33 minutes ago, failos said:

^^^Tell us where this gym is at, TORS. Hopefully it isn’t in Yorba Linda, though

1521 S. Harbor Blvd

Fullerton, CA 92832

[ten ocho recon scout]

24 hour yorba linda, boys

 

But the real talent is self made fitness... lots of wannabe instagram models there....

Key is to make friends w the trainers.... then you reep all the benefits of low self esteem chicks