AL West Assessment for '21

[JustATroutFan]

8 hours ago, Hubs said:

I could easily see the Astros at 78-84. They are not head and shoulders above everyone else. Without fans they did make it to the ALCS but if they think we’ve forgotten about their cheating ways they’re in for a surprise 

I'm guessing every single MLB players who are still active and have cheated at the game of MLB should be booed by opposing fans. Guys who used steroids or pine tar like Pineda, Cruz, Michael Chavis, and Grandal comes to mind. There's different ways to cheat the game of MLB and every single team has had cheaters (PED or pine tar users) playing for them. Hey, only boo them if they're not playing for you team. It's just hypocritical for fans to boo the Astros when they were rooting for PED users who were once on their team. Dodgers, for example, had PED guys like Manny and Grandal. Yet, I don't recall the Dodgers fans booing neither Manny or Grandal when they were on the Dodgers. 

[Docwaukee]

36 minutes ago, Second Base said:

Minasian sees something. No one would pay that much for Cobb when there were that many suitable alternatives on the market for cheaper. Not unless they specifically keyed in on something that few others see, like with Bundy. 

Same with Fowler to a lesser extent. There were alternatives on the market still. Minasian raved about the off-season workouts and thinks he's buying low on someone very good. 

We'll see. 

 

Personally, I think a decent chunk of the Fowler and Cobb thing has to do with Maddon.  

The Fowler thing I get.  Give nothing up.  Pay almost nothing of his salary.  They weren't going to pay much for a RFer anyway.  He's a poor defender but maybe they think they can help him.  I can actually sorta squint and see this one.  I'm disappointed they didn't get a better player to man RF everyday after not making any expensive upgrades elsewhere.  It was an opportunity missed some what, but I get it.  He's got a budget.  

I've said this before, but the Cobb thing I just don't get in any way shape or form other than the fact that he's almost free for 2021 because of that deferred money.  I'm not horribly upset about losing Jones either but it's the combo of giving up an ok prospect for someone who isn't very good and very well could take innings from someone who actually projects to be better than him in Barria.  It's not any one thing that's overly egregious, but when you add them all up it just doesn't make sense to me.  The good news is that it doesn't have to.  

At this point, I'm a bit disappointed in Arte actually.  If the budget is maxed out.  We joke about wasting Trout's prime and all, but the AL West is wide open this year.  Houston is projected to win 90 something games but I'll believe that their offense will be as good as projected when I see that a bunch of those guys hat hit as well as they did without help.  Texas is a wreck.  Seattle has some young talent but is likely a couple years away at best and frankly, I'm not afraid of oakland this year.  

For the past couple years, one or two player upgrade for the halos wouldn't have mattered that much.  This year they do.  And I'm not asking Arte to spend over the threshold or even add a bunch of money but take a chance on Walker or Rosenthal or both or Paxton or a couple of strong relievers or a better RFer than Fowler.  Or even a Semian over Iglesias.  

Scrapping out 2-3 extra wins by spending an extra 10-15m is gonna make a difference this year.  And the team isn't gonna have many opportunities like this where there isn't a true favorite in the division.  

My point is, they did ok.  They got better and didn't lose any significant young talent.  But they could have done a bit more and still preserved the farm.  I hope they don't regret it.  

[Pancake Bear]

36 minutes ago, JustATroutFan said:

There's different ways to cheat the game of MLB and every single team has had cheaters (PED or pine tar users) playing for them.

Most pitchers reportedly use something like pine tar and some batters have said publicly they want pitchers to use something like that so they don't lose control and hit the batter. 

Pine tar, etc. prohibition is a stupid rule and should be eliminated. 

[ThisismineScios]

8 hours ago, Dochalo said:

Personally, I think a decent chunk of the Fowler and Cobb thing has to do with Maddon.  

The Fowler thing I get.  Give nothing up.  Pay almost nothing of his salary.  They weren't going to pay much for a RFer anyway.  He's a poor defender but maybe they think they can help him.  I can actually sorta squint and see this one.  I'm disappointed they didn't get a better player to man RF everyday after not making any expensive upgrades elsewhere.  It was an opportunity missed some what, but I get it.  He's got a budget.  

I've said this before, but the Cobb thing I just don't get in any way shape or form other than the fact that he's almost free for 2021 because of that deferred money.  I'm not horribly upset about losing Jones either but it's the combo of giving up an ok prospect for someone who isn't very good and very well could take innings from someone who actually projects to be better than him in Barria.  It's not any one thing that's overly egregious, but when you add them all up it just doesn't make sense to me.  The good news is that it doesn't have to.  

At this point, I'm a bit disappointed in Arte actually.  If the budget is maxed out.  We joke about wasting Trout's prime and all, but the AL West is wide open this year.  Houston is projected to win 90 something games but I'll believe that their offense will be as good as projected when I see that a bunch of those guys hat hit as well as they did without help.  Texas is a wreck.  Seattle has some young talent but is likely a couple years away at best and frankly, I'm not afraid of oakland this year.  

For the past couple years, one or two player upgrade for the halos wouldn't have mattered that much.  This year they do.  And I'm not asking Arte to spend over the threshold or even add a bunch of money but take a chance on Walker or Rosenthal or both or Paxton or a couple of strong relievers or a better RFer than Fowler.  Or even a Semian over Iglesias.  

Scrapping out 2-3 extra wins by spending an extra 10-15m is gonna make a difference this year.  And the team isn't gonna have many opportunities like this where there isn't a true favorite in the division.  

My point is, they did ok.  They got better and didn't lose any significant young talent.  But they could have done a bit more and still preserved the farm.  I hope they don't regret it.  

In a lot of ways I think some of the decisions about rosters moves are coming from Maddon and Arte. I don't think Perry sat down for the final interview and said, "I'm going to turn this club around by signing or trading for guys that have played for Joe." I think what sold Arte was Perry's overall philosophy and his desire to assemble a front office with some of the best guys out there. In addition, Arte is not going to hire a Dodgers guy to run the front office; no matter what he's not going to admit they do it right and we do it wrong. It's pretty obvious how he feels about them. But if Perry knew he could bring Tamin, and said as much, there's an ability to emulate what the Dodgers do without coming out and hiring a guy from their front office. 

I think it's also clear that Arte told Perry he didn't want to do any long-term contracts this year unless an amazing opportunity came their way. A lot of this I'm sure is due to Pujols, but also because of the market. Targeting 2022 as the season to spend once a season with fans (at some point) is in the books makes sense for Arte. And to his credit, he's allowed Perry to bring in top flight FO guys. But I think Perry is doing the best under the directive he's been given, and he's making Joe happy and Arte happy at the same time. All of this allows him to assess where the team is at, where the farm is at, and if guys like Bundy, Heaney, or Cobb are worth extending. If he is convinced we need to do a multi-year deal with Odorizzi or Walker or Rosenthal, maybe he tries to sell Arte on it. Otherwise, it seems pretty obvious he's sticking to one year deals/expiring contracts in order to recalibrate. The frustrating part with this is we have two 30-year old superstars, and the division is as ripe as its been in 6 years. Now is the time to take a chance or two. Not sure why they haven't done a bit more, but clearly the collection of talent in the FO believes this is the best way to go for now. 

[Second Base]

9 hours ago, Dochalo said:

Personally, I think a decent chunk of the Fowler and Cobb thing has to do with Maddon.  

The Fowler thing I get.  Give nothing up.  Pay almost nothing of his salary.  They weren't going to pay much for a RFer anyway.  He's a poor defender but maybe they think they can help him.  I can actually sorta squint and see this one.  I'm disappointed they didn't get a better player to man RF everyday after not making any expensive upgrades elsewhere.  It was an opportunity missed some what, but I get it.  He's got a budget.  

I've said this before, but the Cobb thing I just don't get in any way shape or form other than the fact that he's almost free for 2021 because of that deferred money.  I'm not horribly upset about losing Jones either but it's the combo of giving up an ok prospect for someone who isn't very good and very well could take innings from someone who actually projects to be better than him in Barria.  It's not any one thing that's overly egregious, but when you add them all up it just doesn't make sense to me.  The good news is that it doesn't have to.  

At this point, I'm a bit disappointed in Arte actually.  If the budget is maxed out.  We joke about wasting Trout's prime and all, but the AL West is wide open this year.  Houston is projected to win 90 something games but I'll believe that their offense will be as good as projected when I see that a bunch of those guys hat hit as well as they did without help.  Texas is a wreck.  Seattle has some young talent but is likely a couple years away at best and frankly, I'm not afraid of oakland this year.  

For the past couple years, one or two player upgrade for the halos wouldn't have mattered that much.  This year they do.  And I'm not asking Arte to spend over the threshold or even add a bunch of money but take a chance on Walker or Rosenthal or both or Paxton or a couple of strong relievers or a better RFer than Fowler.  Or even a Semian over Iglesias.  

Scrapping out 2-3 extra wins by spending an extra 10-15m is gonna make a difference this year.  And the team isn't gonna have many opportunities like this where there isn't a true favorite in the division.  

My point is, they did ok.  They got better and didn't lose any significant young talent.  But they could have done a bit more and still preserved the farm.  I hope they don't regret it.  

I wonder if the crux of it is actually length of years being requested by free agents. So far, Minasian hasn't acquired a single player with more than one year of team control, not one. 

If Rosenthal or whoever else was willing to come over on a one year deal, then I could see it happening. If the trade deadline comes and the Angels aren't competitive, you better believe they'll be trying to sell off Quintana, Bundy, Cobb, both Iglesias', Fowler, Claudio, Suzuki and Heaney. 

Now that I think on it, that might actually be the logic here. That's a lot of prospects Minasian could get in return to try and supplement the farm, and simultaneously open up spots for guys like Detmers, Rodriguez, Marsh and Adell. 

Or maybe they'll be competitive and can add to the roster at the deadline. 

[Bronson]

1 hour ago, ThisismineScios said:

In a lot of ways I think some of the decisions about rosters moves are coming from Maddon and Arte. I don't think Perry sat down for the final interview and said, "I'm going to turn this club around by signing or trading for guys that have played for Joe." I think what sold Arte was Perry's overall philosophy and his desire to assemble a front office with some of the best guys out there. In addition, Arte is not going to hire a Dodgers guy to run the front office; no matter what he's not going to admit they do it right and we do it wrong. It's pretty obvious how he feels about them. But if Perry knew he could bring Tamin, and said as much, there's an ability to emulate what the Dodgers do without coming out and hiring a guy from their front office. 

I think it's also clear that Arte told Perry he didn't want to do any long-term contracts this year unless an amazing opportunity came their way. A lot of this I'm sure is due to Pujols, but also because of the market. Targeting 2022 as the season to spend once a season with fans (at some point) is in the books makes sense for Arte. And to his credit, he's allowed Perry to bring in top flight FO guys. But I think Perry is doing the best under the directive he's been given, and he's making Joe happy and Arte happy at the same time. All of this allows him to assess where the team is at, where the farm is at, and if guys like Bundy, Heaney, or Cobb are worth extending. If he is convinced we need to do a multi-year deal with Odorizzi or Walker or Rosenthal, maybe he tries to sell Arte on it. Otherwise, it seems pretty obvious he's sticking to one year deals/expiring contracts in order to recalibrate. The frustrating part with this is we have two 30-year old superstars, and the division is as ripe as its been in 6 years. Now is the time to take a chance or two. Not sure why they haven't done a bit more, but clearly the collection of talent in the FO believes this is the best way to go for now. 

See I felt this way for a while also. Now when I look at the roster I’m really liking what I’m seeing. 
 

Hot take: I think we would have made the playoffs last year in a full season. We just started off slow and in a shortened season if looked a lot worse then if we played out a full season. 
 

I hope we get one more good reliever like Rosenthal but the roster as constructed is looking nice. We are as deep as we have ever been in recent years. The bottom of the rotation killed us last year and it looks like we shored that up.

[Hubs]

11 hours ago, JustATroutFan said:

I'm guessing every single MLB players who are still active and have cheated at the game of MLB should be booed by opposing fans. Guys who used steroids or pine tar like Pineda, Cruz, Michael Chavis, and Grandal comes to mind. There's different ways to cheat the game of MLB and every single team has had cheaters (PED or pine tar users) playing for them. Hey, only boo them if they're not playing for you team. It's just hypocritical for fans to boo the Astros when they were rooting for PED users who were once on their team. Dodgers, for example, had PED guys like Manny and Grandal. Yet, I don't recall the Dodgers fans booing neither Manny or Grandal when they were on the Dodgers. 

You are so wildly off base. None of the other players you mention as cheaters had any guarantee for success. The guy swinging the bat might be swinging a steroid enhanced bat at a steroid enhance strike throw By a bulked up pitcher. Knowing what pitch is coming dramatically alters the game and competition. The entire team should have been suspended if not banned from baseball a la the Black Sox 

 

[BTH]

13 hours ago, ThisismineScios said:

Aces in general are overrated; I think consistency is more important. I’d rather go into a crucial series with 3 solid guys. The bullpen is what worries me a bit. The only major upgrade is Iglesias. Addition by subtraction with Robles and Milner gone, I suppose, and moving Buttrey to 6th-7th inning work will help. But adding 1 more really good guy would help a ton, be it Rosenthal, Greene, or another. 

We’re not walking into a series facing Cole Verlander Greinke, you’re right. Oakland has a lot of ?’s. But their staffs are probably better than ours. 

Same, I really think they need to add one more good reliever and I think they'd be making a fatal mistake if they didn't. Adding a good reliever can really improve the team, and all they have to give up is money, which Arte has tons of.

[Lou]

I don't think it would be fatal.

[JustATroutFan]

1 hour ago, Hubs said:

You are so wildly off base. None of the other players you mention as cheaters had any guarantee for success. The guy swinging the bat might be swinging a steroid enhanced bat at a steroid enhance strike throw By a bulked up pitcher. Knowing what pitch is coming dramatically alters the game and competition. The entire team should have been suspended if not banned from baseball a la the Black Sox 

 

Cheating at the sport of MLB is cheating. And just because a batter knows what pitch is coming, doesn't mean that he is guarantee to get a hit. It does increase the chance of him getting a hit but he still has to know the speed of the pitch. 

[BTH]

30 minutes ago, Lou said:

I don't think it would be fatal.

It could be. If the Angels had another good reliever last season, they would have blown less games and could've therefore made the playoffs.

[Hubs]

9 hours ago, JustATroutFan said:

Cheating at the sport of MLB is cheating. And just because a batter knows what pitch is coming, doesn't mean that he is guarantee to get a hit. It does increase the chance of him getting a hit but he still has to know the speed of the pitch. 

Apparently you didn’t look at what the Astros were doing. They were Timing pitches. They improved their skills and nearly everyone who’s left has struggled. They went from a mediocre team to a super team with the same group of guys. It made a huge difference. And we’re gonna continue to see that.

[Second Base]

51 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Apparently you didn’t look at what the Astros were doing. They were Timing pitches. They improved their skills and nearly everyone who’s left has struggled. They went from a mediocre team to a super team with the same group of guys. It made a huge difference. And we’re gonna continue to see that.

You're absolutely right. They used to use the Astros as a success story of the tanking process. Now that we know they were cheating and no team will bat 1000 in drafting future superstars, many organizations are shying away from tanking, and instead conducting a soft rebuild. 

Basically, you just do what Eppler and Minasian are doing. Sign some solid vets to one year deals. If it works out, you're a contender, and if it doesn't, you'll have some assets to sell at the deadline to increase your prospect capital.

[Redondo]

7 hours ago, Second Base said:

Basically, you just do what Eppler and Minasian are doing. Sign some solid vets to one year deals. If it works out, you're a contender, and if it doesn't, you'll have some assets to sell at the deadline to increase your prospect capital.

That's the key right there.

If we are out of it, you have to trade off the one year deals for prospects and not sit on them.

This is where PM will show his skills.

[Blarg]

Your example is like showing your driving skills by properly filling out an accident report.