LA Times: Joe Maddon offers frank assessment of #Angels: “We need to do some work”

[AngelsLakersFan]

They should've done a full rebuild in 2010/2011. Once they didn't they pretty much locked themselves into this path they are currently on. Maybe if Albert lives up to the contract and Hamilton doesn't relapse things go a little different.

[Inside Pitch]

3 hours ago, GrittyVeterans said:

It’s too bad we’re too deep into the mess to just do a full rebuild. Watching the White Sox and Padres tear it up this year is frustrating

Look at the bright side -- The Padres went 10 years between winning seasons, the CWS 8.   The Angels have 3 years to match what the CWS have done and they will have beaten the awesome job the Padres have done by two years.

[Claude]

4 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Look at the bright side -- The Padres went 10 years between winning seasons, the CWS 8.   The Angels have 3 years to match what the CWS have done and they will have beaten the awesome job the Padres have done by two years.

Those teams didn’t spend as much money. 

[Inside Pitch]

Just now, RendZone said:

Those teams didn’t spend as much money. 

No, they tried, failed, and then rebooted.   Guessing you aren't aware of the facts as per usual.

The really funny part is the two teams actually crossed paths while spending money.   The Padres got Tatis after signing James Shields to a 4 year 75 million contract and falling flat on their faces.  That's the winter they traded for Matt Kemp and his salary plus took on the real Melvin's contract to get Kimbrel.  Then traded for Justin Upton (giving up Max Fried).    The CWS meanwhile thought they were on the verge of competing and actually thought taking on the final three years and 63 million was so worth it they traded away Tatis Jr to get him.

Besides you're the guy that's always telling people it's not about the money when defending the Yankees..   Or is it only about the money when someone spends less than the Angels?  

Thanks for contributing!

[Lou]

[Claude]

14 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

No, they tried, failed, and then rebooted.   Guessing you aren't aware of the facts as per usual.

The really funny part is the two teams actually crossed paths while spending money.   The Padres got Tatis after signing James Shields to a 4 year 75 million contract and falling flat on their faces.  That's the winter they traded for Matt Kemp and his salary plus took on the real Melvin's contract to get Kimbrel.  Then traded for Justin Upton (giving up Max Fried).    The CWS meanwhile thought they were on the verge of competing and actually thought taking on the final three years and 63 million was so worth it they traded away Tatis Jr to get him.

Besides you're the guy that's always telling people it's not about the money when defending the Yankees..   Or is it only about the money when someone spends less than the Angels?  

Thanks for contributing!

Wrong

[Angelsjunky]

4 hours ago, totdprods said:

There's a lot that needs to happen, but we do have a lot of great pieces to work with. 

One of the biggest things now - and maybe Eppler's last hope for a job next year, here or otherwise, is what he's hedged his bets on. The farm. The Angels need a couple bats and a couple arms to really show something before this year is up, otherwise Billy is a goner - he's held onto these prospects, developed them, and not put them in the majors. If they can't do that right now, we'll have a new GM without a doubt, and the Angels will be in real trouble as a result. 

I see the roster like this going into '21...

• Rotation:
  • 1: ??? - there isn't really any true #1 available as of now by FA or trade. Bauer comes closest, and isn't a given to produce or to be acquired. 
  • 2 and 3: Bundy/Heaney shore this up nicely. If one can start to ascend to a #1, we can get by with increased production from...
  • 4 and 5: Quite simply, one of Barria, Suarez, Sandoval, or Detmers even have to step up here this fall and claim this, and Canning needs to not fall apart.
  • Wildcard: Ohtani. 
• Bullpen:
  • I always have a hard time worrying too much about the bullpen, because it's my opinion that if a team has a functioning rotation, defense, and offense, the bullpen's importance becomes marginalized - at least when we're at the stage we're at now. We have plenty of pieces that have promise. Some are quietly coming around and putting together a good year, only having their numbers skewed by small sample size. We need to keep adding guys like Mike Mayers, Gerardo Reyes, Noe Ramirez. This will come together if everything is clicking, of that I am confident. 
• Catcher:
  • Stassi looked good, but it's been brief. Bemboom is showing the defense to be the third-stringer for the foreseeable future since he has options as well I believe. His bat is a bit better this year too. Angels will likely sign a vet to a one-year deal again. I think this is fine. 
• First Base:
  • This is really becoming an issue, and not because of Pujols. Especially in his final year. Much like the back of the rotation, it's time for one of Thaiss, Walsh, or Ward to step up and hit. At least give us a .750-.800 OPS to replace La Stella/Goodwin. If one finishes the year like this, we're good - for now. 
• Second Base/Shortstop:
  • Again - it's time. Rengifo or Barreto have to step up here and claim this. Rengifo had a promising year last year. His overall line this year is awful, but he's showing dramatically improved BB% rate and taking more pitches. Barreto might just need playing time. The biggest downside to not trading Simmons this deadline is that it will take away time from one of these two getting more reps in - and we need that to evaluate what we have. More than likely, one of these two are simply playing for the 2021 UT role. I never thought Fletcher had the range or arm to play shortstop, but he's done quite well this year filling in for Simba. I'd be comfortable giving him the role in 2021, as I think re-signing Simba is unlikely. We need the money. I'd rather re-sign La Stella for 1B/2B work. I guess Jam Jones is a long-shot here too.
• Third Base/Centerfield:
  • We're good.
• Left Field/Designated Hitter:
  • I'm not giving up on Upton quite yet. He's been notoriously streaky throughout his career. A creature of habit. His injuries and the virus might have simply amplified his weaknesses. I think he can be a .250/.800/25 HR guy still for another year or two, but am prepared to just assume that, like Pujols, he could be deadweight DH/PH/platoon material next year. No escaping it. 
• Right Field/Left Field:
  • Much like what we're seeing with the rest of the kids, it's time to step up. Adell needs to show he can put up at least Goodwin-level production offensively the rest of the year. If Marsh gets called up, same expectations. Jones again is a long-shot here, as could be Ward.

Our needs, first and foremost, are not a FA #1 SP, but rather:

• a young SP or two has to join Canning as showing signs of at least league-average MLB production
• at least one of Thaiss, Rengifo, Ward, Walsh, Barreto, or Jones hitting enough to replace Tommy La Stella's production at 1B/2B
• at least one of Adell, Ward, Marsh, or Jones hitting enough to replace Goodwin's production 

If that can't be done, none of this is going to work in 2021. 

Following that, our 2021 shopping list:

• A productive SP. I won't put a label on it. We need another Bundy/Heaney, or we need a Bauer. We need quality innings one way or another. A trade might be best.
• A vet catcher. Keep it simple, keep it safe, sign another Castro-type. He could be a fit, as could Molina, Romine, McCann, Suzuki, Cervelli, Chirinos.
• We'll need to acquire another mid-infielder, barring a miracle. Could be re-signing La Stella or Simmons. Could be a stopgap up the middle. Lots of FA options this year. Profar, Schoop, LeMahieu, La Stella, Simmons, Villar, Gregorius, Hernandez, Galvis...lots of steady options that should be doable on a one-year.
• We will probably still need to sign at least a 4th OF/platoon OF to go with Upton or give us some insurance for Adell/Marsh. I actually think Joe Pederson makes a lot of sense to target. Lefty bat, platoons with Upton or Adell, picks up 1B again. Markakis, Souza, Grossman, Reddick, Pillar could also fit.

Nice assessment (as always), totdprods. I basically agree with most of what you said, but would emphasize a few things differently.

The starting pitching is more problematic than you imply, I think, because all of the guys we have just aren't that good, all #3-5s. Bundy is probably more of a #3, Heaney a #3-4, Canning should become a #3 but isn't quite there yet, Sandoval a #4ish, Barria a #4-5. Even if Detmers is ready in 2021, we shouldn't expect more than #4 performance. Suarez still has decent stuff, but has shown no sign of being a major leaguer and maybe should move to low leverage bullpen work to acclimate. A lot of the in-system hope is 1-3 years away in C Rodriguez, Soriano, Kochanowicz, Yan, Aquino, or more low-upside in Stallings, Hernandez, Pina, etc.

Meaning, we don't have anyone with #1-2 stuff that is likely to perform at that level in 2021-22. Except (maybe) Ohtani, but as you say, he's a wildcard. So if the Angels want to compete in 2021-22, they really need to acquire at least one #1-2 guy. They need an anchor. I don't think that's Bundy. Maybe Bauer, but he's really the only free agent on that level. The best of the rest are more #3s, which would help but doesn't give us an ace. 

I'd like to see the Angels get Bauer or two #3 types like Gausman and Odorizzi, but I'm going to temper expectations until Pujols and Upton come off the payroll. More realistically we might see one #3 type and be left hoping that a couple of Ohtani, Canning, Sandoval, Barria and Suarez step forward. At best that will solidify the rotation and make it at least competitive, if not championship caliber. To get there they really need one of the younger guys to fulfill their potential. Our best hopes are probably Detmers, Rodriguez, and maybe Koch eventually. But again, that's years away. I hope to see Soriano and Yan take a big step forward next year, as well, but all of these guys probably won't be showing their full potential until 2023 or later, except possibly Detmers.

As far as the infield is concerned, I'm actually comfortable with the idea of going with Fletcher, Barreto, and Rengifo. Fletch is solid and the team's third best player at this point, unless Ohtani starts performing or until Adell/Marsh mature. I think Rengifo is going to blossom into a nice player and I hope the Angels hold onto him. I'm also hopeful about Barreto. Maybe they get a journeyman type just in case, but I don't think they'll spend on a La Stella, Villar, or Miller type. I think the big question is whether they give Simmons a QO - he would strengthen the team, and the Angels can let Barreto and Rengifo fight it out for UT, with the other back to AAA.

1B is a disaster and I think the Angels need to let go of the "Pujols Pity Legacy Tour." They need to take a long, hard look at Thaiss - give him consistent at-bats, as he's likely the best of the mediocre bunch. Ward and Walsh are AAA filler.

I also don't think the time to give up on Upton is now, but that's only because they owe him $40M+ for the next two years. I think they need to bring up Marsh ASAP, see if he can platoon with Adell and Upton, back Trout up, and maybe get a few at-bats at 1B if he can hit.

Yes, a Castro or Avila type at catcher. I wouldn't lose too much sleep about who it is.

Finally, while I agree with your logic about the bullpen, we've been saying that for years and always end up with a crappy pen that loses tons of games. After signing at least one starter, I'd like to see the Angels prioritize a couple good relievers, and maybe see how Sandoval and/or Suarez look in the pen. I could see Rodriguez, Soriano and Yan breaking into the majors as relievers, as soon as next year.

 

 

[AngelsLakersFan]

I hate to say it but the Pujols / Upton money is already allocated. I think they might have room for a CJ Wilson style contract after Pujols comes off the books.

[Inside Pitch]

22 minutes ago, RendZone said:

Wrong

LOL..   Not wrong.   

Between 2012 (78 Mil), and 2015 (128 Mil), they added 50 million to their payroll and the 2015 numbers are AFTER they started selling off mid-season..  By 2017 it was down to 98 Mil.   

Thank you for making my point.

No idea what the point of adding the Angels payroll was -- at no point has anyone argued the Angels weren't spending more.   You really need to see someone about those voices you keep hearing in your head.

Seriously, try to troll smarter.

 

[Claude]

5 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

LOL..   Not wrong.   

Between 2012 (78 Mil), and 2015 (128 Mil), they added 50 million to their payroll and the 2015 numbers are AFTER they started selling off mid-season..  By 2017 it was down to 98 Mil.   

Thank you for making my point.

No idea what the point of adding the Angels payroll was -- at no point has anyone argued the Angels weren't spending more.   You really need to see someone about those voices you keep hearing in your head.

Seriously, try to troll smarter.

 

Nope the Padres nor the White Sox spent as much as the Angels from 2009 to present. Nice try cherry picking a couple of seasons but no. 

[Inside Pitch]

1 minute ago, RendZone said:

Nope the Padres nor the White Sox spent as much as the Angels from 2009 to present. Nice try cherry picking a couple of seasons but no. 

LOL..   

I'll remind you what was actually said.

47 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

No, they tried, failed, and then rebooted.   Guessing you aren't aware of the facts as per usual.

The really funny part is the two teams actually crossed paths while spending money.   The Padres got Tatis after signing James Shields to a 4 year 75 million contract and falling flat on their faces.  That's the winter they traded for Matt Kemp and his salary plus took on the real Melvin's contract to get Kimbrel.  Then traded for Justin Upton (giving up Max Fried).    The CWS meanwhile thought they were on the verge of competing and actually thought taking on the final three years and 63 million was so worth it they traded away Tatis Jr to get him.

Besides you're the guy that's always telling people it's not about the money when defending the Yankees..   Or is it only about the money when someone spends less than the Angels?  

Thanks for contributing!

Nice try indeed.

Get help, man.

[ten ocho recon scout]

4 hours ago, Lhalo said:

I'm actually digging the Padres. 

As one of the biggest dodger haters in history, i hope SD ruins it for them.

Or the giants. Or the dbacks. Or anybody. Ill take covid 20 if it screws the dodgers.

But im a romantic.

[Claude]

3 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

LOL..   

I'll remind you what was actually said.

Nice try indeed.

Get help, man.

No you were talking about the Padres and CWS fails and I said they didn’t spend as much money. Obviously I was referring to the Angels. But you can get your little calculator out and try figure it out. I really don’t give a hoot.

[ten ocho recon scout]

31 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I hate to say it but the Pujols / Upton money is already allocated. I think they might have room for a CJ Wilson style contract after Pujols comes off the books.

Well, hopefully we spend it as well as we did for CJ

[Inside Pitch]

7 minutes ago, RendZone said:

No you were talking about the Padres and CWS fails and I said they didn’t spend as much money. Obviously I was referring to the Angels. But you can get your little calculator out and try figure it out. I really don’t give a hoot.

Here you go, Bro.

https://www.zocdoc.com/psychologists?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc_generic&utm_campaign=10307884750&utm_term=psychologist near me&utm_content=101506175894&gclid=CjwKCAjw4rf6BRAvEiwAn2Q76rTk47cSBnWKOSsr07IOZkbhAiX-6yt2y-gQ9cIoIoPT_-MwgyXqDRoCMKkQAvD_BwE

Good luck!

[Bronson]

7 hours ago, totdprods said: 

• Bullpen:
  • I always have a hard time worrying too much about the bullpen, because it's my opinion that if a team has a functioning rotation, defense, and offense, the bullpen's importance becomes marginalized - at least when we're at the stage we're at now. We have plenty of pieces that have promise. Some are quietly coming around and putting together a good year, only having their numbers skewed by small sample size. We need to keep adding guys like Mike Mayers, Gerardo Reyes, Noe Ramirez. This will come together if everything is clicking, of that I am confident. 

This exact mentality is why our bullpen is so shitty each and every year.

[Docwaukee]

The one thing that's incredibly impressive about the Halos this years is how much of an anomaly they are.  To be a -6 relative to base runs after only 36 games is something I don't ever remember seeing.  That would make us -27 for the season.  

 

[Angel Oracle]

Defense has been iffy.

The future will be bright for the OF defense, once Adell and Marsh are acclimated.

Rendon and Fletcher make up a great half of a defensive INF.   Re-sign Simba, and that’s 3/4.

Then the defense should save a lot more runs than they are in 2020.

[totdprods]

13 hours ago, Bronson said:

This exact mentality is why our bullpen is so shitty each and every year.

There isn’t a tried and true blueprint for building a successful pen. 

Each and every year, we have either a shitty rotation or an ineffective offense, or both. A good bullpen won’t save us. We need to fix the first two before we fix the latter. A good stable bullpen gives you rested relievers and more depth to shuffle through the guys that are struggling. That’s our best bet currently. Not signing the best FA RP arms. That’s a losing plan consistently. 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

21 hours ago, totdprods said:

There's a lot that needs to happen, but we do have a lot of great pieces to work with. 

One of the biggest things now - and maybe Eppler's last hope for a job next year, here or otherwise, is what he's hedged his bets on. The farm. The Angels need a couple bats and a couple arms to really show something before this year is up, otherwise Billy is a goner - he's held onto these prospects, developed them, and not put them in the majors. If they can't do that right now, we'll have a new GM without a doubt, and the Angels will be in real trouble as a result. 

I see the roster like this going into '21...

• Rotation:
  • 1: ??? - there isn't really any true #1 available as of now by FA or trade. Bauer comes closest, and isn't a given to produce or to be acquired. 
  • 2 and 3: Bundy/Heaney shore this up nicely. If one can start to ascend to a #1, we can get by with increased production from...
  • 4 and 5: Quite simply, one of Barria, Suarez, Sandoval, or Detmers even have to step up here this fall and claim this, and Canning needs to not fall apart.
  • Wildcard: Ohtani. 
• Bullpen:
  • I always have a hard time worrying too much about the bullpen, because it's my opinion that if a team has a functioning rotation, defense, and offense, the bullpen's importance becomes marginalized - at least when we're at the stage we're at now. We have plenty of pieces that have promise. Some are quietly coming around and putting together a good year, only having their numbers skewed by small sample size. We need to keep adding guys like Mike Mayers, Gerardo Reyes, Noe Ramirez. This will come together if everything is clicking, of that I am confident. 
• Catcher:
  • Stassi looked good, but it's been brief. Bemboom is showing the defense to be the third-stringer for the foreseeable future since he has options as well I believe. His bat is a bit better this year too. Angels will likely sign a vet to a one-year deal again. I think this is fine. 
• First Base:
  • This is really becoming an issue, and not because of Pujols. Especially in his final year. Much like the back of the rotation, it's time for one of Thaiss, Walsh, or Ward to step up and hit. At least give us a .750-.800 OPS to replace La Stella/Goodwin. If one finishes the year like this, we're good - for now. 
• Second Base/Shortstop:
  • Again - it's time. Rengifo or Barreto have to step up here and claim this. Rengifo had a promising year last year. His overall line this year is awful, but he's showing dramatically improved BB% rate and taking more pitches. Barreto might just need playing time. The biggest downside to not trading Simmons this deadline is that it will take away time from one of these two getting more reps in - and we need that to evaluate what we have. More than likely, one of these two are simply playing for the 2021 UT role. I never thought Fletcher had the range or arm to play shortstop, but he's done quite well this year filling in for Simba. I'd be comfortable giving him the role in 2021, as I think re-signing Simba is unlikely. We need the money. I'd rather re-sign La Stella for 1B/2B work. I guess Jam Jones is a long-shot here too.
• Third Base/Centerfield:
  • We're good.
• Left Field/Designated Hitter:
  • I'm not giving up on Upton quite yet. He's been notoriously streaky throughout his career. A creature of habit. His injuries and the virus might have simply amplified his weaknesses. I think he can be a .250/.800/25 HR guy still for another year or two, but am prepared to just assume that, like Pujols, he could be deadweight DH/PH/platoon material next year. No escaping it. 
• Right Field/Left Field:
  • Much like what we're seeing with the rest of the kids, it's time to step up. Adell needs to show he can put up at least Goodwin-level production offensively the rest of the year. If Marsh gets called up, same expectations. Jones again is a long-shot here, as could be Ward.

Our needs, first and foremost, are not a FA #1 SP, but rather:

• a young SP or two has to join Canning as showing signs of at least league-average MLB production
• at least one of Thaiss, Rengifo, Ward, Walsh, Barreto, or Jones hitting enough to replace Tommy La Stella's production at 1B/2B
• at least one of Adell, Ward, Marsh, or Jones hitting enough to replace Goodwin's production 

If that can't be done, none of this is going to work in 2021. 

Following that, our 2021 shopping list:

• A productive SP. I won't put a label on it. We need another Bundy/Heaney, or we need a Bauer. We need quality innings one way or another. A trade might be best.
• A vet catcher. Keep it simple, keep it safe, sign another Castro-type. He could be a fit, as could Molina, Romine, McCann, Suzuki, Cervelli, Chirinos.
• We'll need to acquire another mid-infielder, barring a miracle. Could be re-signing La Stella or Simmons. Could be a stopgap up the middle. Lots of FA options this year. Profar, Schoop, LeMahieu, La Stella, Simmons, Villar, Gregorius, Hernandez, Galvis...lots of steady options that should be doable on a one-year.
• We will probably still need to sign at least a 4th OF/platoon OF to go with Upton or give us some insurance for Adell/Marsh. I actually think Joe Pederson makes a lot of sense to target. Lefty bat, platoons with Upton or Adell, picks up 1B again. Markakis, Souza, Grossman, Reddick, Pillar could also fit.

Agree with everything stated here exception the •wildcard in the rotation.

We always lay up short of the green and always hope one or two of our starting pitchers comes back from injury in hopes of better days in the future. That has crushed us for the last 5 seasons if it isn't GRich, it was Skaggs, or Heaney, or Ohtani etc... 

If you want to be a serious contender you "never count on the unknown entities" if they comeback? Great! It becomes an area of strength to deal from to address another position! This has been our issue for years maybe its the budget? Maybe, its just that our FO historically places too much belief in the Medical side and that hasn't panned off either.

I go after Lynn and Bauer and maybe another it takes the stress also off the kids who are grinding to get here but also won't burn them out. Saurez was over matched last year to the point that I highly doubt he returns any positive results on the mound either as a late rotation piece, a loogey, or a spot starter, middle guy. I hope the same doesn't happen with Sandoval...

[Angelsjunky]

14 minutes ago, totdprods said:

There isn’t a tried and true blueprint for building a successful pen. 

Each and every year, we have either a shitty rotation or an ineffective offense, or both. A good bullpen won’t save us. We need to fix the first two before we fix the latter. A good stable bullpen gives you rested relievers and more depth to shuffle through the guys that are struggling. That’s our best bet currently. Not signing the best FA RP arms. That’s a losing plan consistently. 

If we break the team down by these components--position players (offense/defense), rotation, bullpen--then I'd offer the following prognosis for 2021, with current components:

Position players: In pretty good shape, with a nice offensive core of Trout, Rendon, and Fletcher; hopefully resurgences from Upton and Ohtani; and projectable players in Adell, Marsh, Barreto, and Rengifo. Improvement could be made at 1B and C.

Rotation: Poor, with all starters in the #3-5 range. Major improvement needed.

Bullpen: Poor, with a few useful pieces. Improvement needed.

I think the offense/defense can be and should be improved from within, with development from young players and hopefully some positive regression from Upton, Ohtani and Trout. The rotation is obviously the big problem, and will be hard to fix. But that's where the bulk of money should be spent. While I think a good bullpen is more important than you say, it does follow from what the Angels do with the rotation. 

[bruin5]

21 hours ago, eligrba4ever said:

No starting pitching talent. No catching talent. No prospect first basemen. Let's build from there.

Laughing not from joy, but from the agony of insanity.

Thankfully we have a whole bunch of MIL outfielders that we aren’t willing to trade. 

I would add two other things to Maddon’s list of concerns - development and scouting.   I just don’t feel like we do a good job in these areas.