Football: CTE, concussions, repeated hits . . .

[RallyMo]

This is a really big deal and I think that over time we'll probably see a huge change in how the sport is played and there will be significant rule changes.

I honestly am having reservations about the watching the sport itself, despite the fact that I love it so much.

It's just not good for the participants. It's REALLY bad.

[mtangelsfan]

I kind of feel the same way, (about MMA as well).

Just love watching them so much and keep telling myself that they want to do this and understand the risks.

Kind of like smokers.

[nate]

Yeah I don't get how MMA can still exist since the goal is to give the other person a concussion...

Also I think what is really bad for football is now the research is saying repeated small hits are more dangerous than concussions.  So players like linemen that have a big impact every single play are basically exposing themselves to CTE.

[Tank]

Changing the culture in the NFL is not going to be easy, but it needs to be done.

[nate]

It doesn't matter, you can't get rid of the OL and DL, then it is not football.

[RallyMo]

On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 9:30 AM, mtangelsfan said:

I kind of feel the same way, (about MMA as well).

Just love watching them so much and keep telling myself that they want to do this and understand the risks.

Kind of like smokers.

Yep, and we're all guilty of this @mtangelsfan. The thing is this: I don't think that we're having discussions about this on the scale that we should be because people are legitimately afraid to have them. I know that "afraid" is a strange/touchy-feely word to use, but I think it's appropriate. We're afraid due to two reasons, IMO: 1) deep analysis will ultimately reveal that we're all complicit to a degree in the things that happen to these people via our desire to watch these sports (particularly football), and 2) we realize that if we approach this honestly we may lose this sport that we love so much.

As to the notion that we can continue to tell ourselves that the participants want to do this and understand the risks: I felt that way, but given new research, it's not something that I think people can continue to do. New research shows that allowing kids to play tackle football before the age of 12 places them at significantly increased risk for behavioral/emotional issues later down the line:

http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2017/09/19/youth-football-concussions

As such, it's not like smokers, because in our culture if a person were to allow their kid to smoke, they'd rightly be considered a monster in doing so. However, especially around where I live in Texas, letting your little kid play tackle football is perfectly ok for most, although there is certainly a growing contingent of people that think otherwise. We're going to have a major culture shift in regard to this. Then, once the kids get older than 12, they get larger and they are exposing themselves to the risk of CTE.

These NCAA and NFL players come from somewhere, and most of them are playing football as kids, and with their parents willingly participating. For every 1 dude that makes the NFL, there are tons of others that got their heads bashed in a million times that aren't even going to reap the rewards that the NFL dudes get.

On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 9:53 AM, nate said:

Yeah I don't get how MMA can still exist since the goal is to give the other person a concussion...

Also I think what is really bad for football is now the research is saying repeated small hits are more dangerous than concussions.  So players like linemen that have a big impact every single play are basically exposing themselves to CTE.

Exactly.

13 hours ago, Tank said:

Changing the culture in the NFL is not going to be easy, but it needs to be done.

I think there's far more to it. This isn't just about the NFL, this is about football in general. Perhaps changes at the NFL level can filter down. They'll have to. I think we'll see lawsuits at almost every level eventually, down to school districts getting sued. Money is going to initially drive the change, if it happens.

 

[mtangelsfan]

50 minutes ago, RallyMo said:

Yep, and we're all guilty of this @mtangelsfan. The thing is this: I don't think that we're having discussions about this on the scale that we should be because people are legitimately afraid to have them. I know that "afraid" is a strange/touchy-feely word to use, but I think it's appropriate. We're afraid due to two reasons, IMO: 1) deep analysis will ultimately reveal that we're all complicit to a degree in the things that happen to these people via our desire to watch these sports (particularly football), and 2) we realize that if we approach this honestly we may lose this sport that we love so much.

As to the notion that we can continue to tell ourselves that the participants want to do this and understand the risks: I felt that way, but given new research, it's not something that I think people can continue to do. New research shows that allowing kids to play tackle football before the age of 12 places them at significantly increased risk for behavioral/emotional issues later down the line:

http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2017/09/19/youth-football-concussions

As such, it's not like smokers, because in our culture if a person were to allow their kid to smoke, they'd rightly be considered a monster in doing so. However, especially around where I live in Texas, letting your little kid play tackle football is perfectly ok for most, although there is certainly a growing contingent of people that think otherwise. We're going to have a major culture shift in regard to this. Then, once the kids get older than 12, they get larger and they are exposing themselves to the risk of CTE.

These NCAA and NFL players come from somewhere, and most of them are playing football as kids, and with their parents willingly participating. For every 1 dude that makes the NFL, there are tons of others that got their heads bashed in a million times that aren't even going to reap the rewards that the NFL dudes get.

Exactly.

I think there's far more to it. This isn't just about the NFL, this is about football in general. Perhaps changes at the NFL level can filter down. They'll have to. I think we'll see lawsuits at almost every level eventually, down to school districts getting sued. Money is going to initially drive the change, if it happens.

 

I agree that we are complicit and that we don't want to think about it.  Makes me grateful that my son likes swimming and my other one likes the theater.

[nate]

Abby really wanted to play hockey but we said no.

Sticking with soccer and rock climbing

[AngelsLongBall]

Reading this thread I'm like this

[AngelsLongBall]

But seriously, agree with all the takes.  My parents didn't let me play tackle until high school.  And then I was a lineman.  A lot of the aches and pains of being 40 probably can be traced back to my playing days.  Back, knees, concussions, etc. 

I love football.  College football is my passion.  I always wanted my son to grow up like me but bigger, stronger and faster.  But more and more, my wife and I are thinking we do so much to make sure our children have a better life/path than we did, and to provide, save money for college, etc.  Why would we deliberately disrupt his path to adulthood by possibly introducing interactions that could debilitate him later in life. 

So I guess it's a good thing I'm his baseball coach...

[Tank]

On 9/23/2017 at 11:47 AM, nate said:

Abby really wanted to play hockey but we said no.

Sticking with soccer and rock climbing

you should have her take up competitive trampoline. adam can set up a nice rig in your yard.

[AngelsLongBall]

On 9/23/2017 at 11:47 AM, nate said:

Abby really wanted to play hockey but we said no.

Sticking with soccer and rock climbing

My sister had more concussions playing soccer than my brother and I playing football combined.

[Adam]

 

I agree. 

I don't think there is a solution. The game wouldn't resemble what we understand as Football if it were made safe.

[Thomas]

Yeah my oldest wants to play football but I won't let him. Not sure how much better hockey and soccer are that I do let him play. I seriously get queasy watching NFL games. Even if you don't see the head jarring hits you still see at least three to five players a game go out with significant history. It's the modern equivalent to watching gladiators at the local coliseum.  

[nando714]

Played tackle football from age 7-21 (I'm 30 now) Linebacker and played Quarterback, mostly linebacker though. 

i think I'm lucky. Never a major injury, never a broken bone, probably had a 2 concussions that I know about. 1 in high school, literally went helmet (front to front) to helmet with a kid, wasn't dizzy but it happen on the sideline trainer evaluated me and said I could stay in. That hit definetly rang my bell. Another was JC ball vs Ventura college. I got blasted on kickoff coverage I got up and literally saw 2 players with the ball running aft me. That was probably the worst. Again I stayed in the game. I haven't really felt any long term effects. I still lift weights 4 days a week and do some cardio. I actually think I'm stronger now than my playing days lol

I think it starts with coaching. Especially in youth football. I've seen some guys coaching who have absolutely no idea what they're doing. No real football background, literally lining kids up 5 yards apart telling them to go heads up at each other. I literally want to puke when I see that. I coached HS football for 5 seasons and the rules have changed a lot. There are no more 2 a days in summer, you can only go full pads 2 days a week (from what I remember), we did a lot non contact practices throughout the week to minimize the blows (as much as we can). 

I also think football is a cheap sport to play (especially in inner cities and in parts of the country that are poor). It's not like baseball where you need a $200 glove, $300 bat, $200 cleats then on top of that there's  travel baseball.  Most of the equipment is already provided by the school/pop warner/ etc. it's not like aau basketball where you need to spend thousands of dollars to go across the country to play in tournaments or even club soccer for that matter. I think that's why kids will continue to play bc it's cheaper for struggling families. It's also a way of life in some parts of the country. From youth to high school or to college and the pros of your good enough.

I think the NFL is doing a good job with the rules and protecting WR and QBs. Go watch highlights even from the early 2000s to the 80s it might make you puke. Guys got destroyed, QBs were standing targets, heads bouncing off the old turf.

I like how the NFL (maybe college?) has Dr's watching players for signs of concussions. 

If my kids ever wanted to play tackle football I would let them. I would absolutely have to coach on their team though at least in the early stages of playing. I simply don't trust other people Coaching my kids up in football 

My brothers played football for a long period of time from youth and one played at chapman another at Montana State (1 was a QB and 1 was a Strong Saftey). All 3 of us never had a major injury or missed games due to concussions. The worse injury any of us had was a dislocated elbow. We were watching the NFL games last Sunday and If we follow the statistics 2 out of 3 of us have CTE though. 

[Adam]

45 minutes ago, nando714 said:

Played tackle football from age 7-21 (I'm 30 now) Linebacker and played Quarterback, mostly linebacker though. 

i think I'm lucky. Never a major injury, never a broken bone, probably had a 2 concussions that I know about. 1 in high school, literally went helmet (front to front) to helmet with a kid, wasn't dizzy but it happen on the sideline trainer evaluated me and said I could stay in. That hit definetly rang my bell. Another was JC ball vs Ventura college. I got blasted on kickoff coverage I got up and literally saw 2 players with the ball running aft me. That was probably the worst. Again I stayed in the game. I haven't really felt any long term effects. I still lift weights 4 days a week and do some cardio. I actually think I'm stronger now than my playing days lol

I think it starts with coaching. Especially in youth football. I've seen some guys coaching who have absolutely no idea what they're doing. No real football background, literally lining kids up 5 yards apart telling them to go heads up at each other. I literally want to puke when I see that. I coached HS football for 5 seasons and the rules have changed a lot. There are no more 2 a days in summer, you can only go full pads 2 days a week (from what I remember), we did a lot non contact practices throughout the week to minimize the blows (as much as we can). 

I also think football is a cheap sport to play (especially in inner cities and in parts of the country that are poor). It's not like baseball where you need a $200 glove, $300 bat, $200 cleats then on top of that there's  travel baseball.  Most of the equipment is already provided by the school/pop warner/ etc. it's not like aau basketball where you need to spend thousands of dollars to go across the country to play in tournaments or even club soccer for that matter. I think that's why kids will continue to play bc it's cheaper for struggling families. It's also a way of life in some parts of the country. From youth to high school or to college and the pros of your good enough.

I think the NFL is doing a good job with the rules and protecting WR and QBs. Go watch highlights even from the early 2000s to the 80s it might make you puke. Guys got destroyed, QBs were standing targets, heads bouncing off the old turf.

I like how the NFL (maybe college?) has Dr's watching players for signs of concussions. 

If my kids ever wanted to play tackle football I would let them. I would absolutely have to coach on their team though at least in the early stages of playing. I simply don't trust other people Coaching my kids up in football 

My brothers played football for a long period of time from youth and one played at chapman another at Montana State (1 was a QB and 1 was a Strong Saftey). All 3 of us never had a major injury or missed games due to concussions. The worse injury any of us had was a dislocated elbow. We were watching the NFL games last Sunday and If we follow the statistics 2 out of 3 of us have CTE though. 

What JC did you play at? And when?

[nando714]

25 minutes ago, Adam said:

What JC did you play at? And when?

Golden west 06

[Adam]

Damn I'm old. Fullerton, '96

[nate]

1 hour ago, nando714 said:

Played tackle football from age 7-21 (I'm 30 now) Linebacker and played Quarterback, mostly linebacker though. 

i think I'm lucky. Never a major injury, never a broken bone, probably had a 2 concussions that I know about. 1 in high school, literally went helmet (front to front) to helmet with a kid, wasn't dizzy but it happen on the sideline trainer evaluated me and said I could stay in. That hit definetly rang my bell. Another was JC ball vs Ventura college. I got blasted on kickoff coverage I got up and literally saw 2 players with the ball running aft me. That was probably the worst. Again I stayed in the game. I haven't really felt any long term effects. I still lift weights 4 days a week and do some cardio. I actually think I'm stronger now than my playing days lol

I think it starts with coaching. Especially in youth football. I've seen some guys coaching who have absolutely no idea what they're doing. No real football background, literally lining kids up 5 yards apart telling them to go heads up at each other. I literally want to puke when I see that. I coached HS football for 5 seasons and the rules have changed a lot. There are no more 2 a days in summer, you can only go full pads 2 days a week (from what I remember), we did a lot non contact practices throughout the week to minimize the blows (as much as we can). 

I also think football is a cheap sport to play (especially in inner cities and in parts of the country that are poor). It's not like baseball where you need a $200 glove, $300 bat, $200 cleats then on top of that there's  travel baseball.  Most of the equipment is already provided by the school/pop warner/ etc. it's not like aau basketball where you need to spend thousands of dollars to go across the country to play in tournaments or even club soccer for that matter. I think that's why kids will continue to play bc it's cheaper for struggling families. It's also a way of life in some parts of the country. From youth to high school or to college and the pros of your good enough.

I think the NFL is doing a good job with the rules and protecting WR and QBs. Go watch highlights even from the early 2000s to the 80s it might make you puke. Guys got destroyed, QBs were standing targets, heads bouncing off the old turf.

I like how the NFL (maybe college?) has Dr's watching players for signs of concussions. 

If my kids ever wanted to play tackle football I would let them. I would absolutely have to coach on their team though at least in the early stages of playing. I simply don't trust other people Coaching my kids up in football 

My brothers played football for a long period of time from youth and one played at chapman another at Montana State (1 was a QB and 1 was a Strong Saftey). All 3 of us never had a major injury or missed games due to concussions. The worse injury any of us had was a dislocated elbow. We were watching the NFL games last Sunday and If we follow the statistics 2 out of 3 of us have CTE though. 

Yeah, but again, they have found that the little impacts that happen every single play for linemen is probably the most dangerous, because on each one the brain is rattling around in their skull a little.  Linemen impact each other every single play, it is unavoidable.

[Adam]

My wife and I fight about this. She wants complete prohibition. I want to leave it up to my son, once he's in High School.

[nate]

3 hours ago, AngelsLongBall said:

My sister had more concussions playing soccer than my brother and I playing football combined.

Yea, I am worried about it.  Once she gets older and it gets more physical we might need to pull the plug on it.

Our schedule right now is crazy anyway.  M Chess coach, Tues soccer practice, W chess club, Th rock climbing coach, F soccer game, Sat rock climbing competition/team

and a lot of Sunday afternoons some of the girls on the soccer team get together and have an unofficial practice

Edited September 26, 2017 by nate

[AngelsLongBall]

33 minutes ago, nate said:

Yeah, but again, they have found that the little impacts that happen every single play for linemen is probably the most dangerous, because on each one the brain is rattling around in their skull a little.  Linemen impact each other every single play, it is unavoidable.

I remember my senior year doing Bull in the Ring.  Perhaps it wasn't wise that I won...I also remember having old school position coaches, and they had me and the other tackle go nose to nose, literally helmet to helmet as hard as we could for about half a dozen plays in a row to "show" the rest of the team how to hit.  Yeah that probably wasn't wise either

[nate]

5 minutes ago, AngelsLongBall said:

I remember my senior year doing Bull in the Ring.  Perhaps it wasn't wise that I won...I also remember having old school position coaches, and they had me and the other tackle go nose to nose, literally helmet to helmet as hard as we could for about half a dozen plays in a row to "show" the rest of the team how to hit.  Yeah that probably wasn't wise either

Sure explains a lot though  

[Tank]

2 hours ago, nando714 said:

Played tackle football from age 7-21 (I'm 30 now) Linebacker and played Quarterback, mostly linebacker though. 

i think I'm lucky. 

But you ended up being a usc fan. must be some kind of affect... 

[nate]

4 hours ago, Tank said:

But you ended up being a usc fan. must be some kind of affect... 

See ALB post above