Andrelton Simmons a top 10 SS (by MLB Network)

[Blarg]

I have it on good authority he received a Double Double, Fries and a Shake as a bonus.

 

The Fries were the side order to be named later.

[Blarg]

The bottom line is that Eppler exhausted the team's trade chips for a SS despite lacking a LF. That's like buying gas before buying a car. There are priorities, and Eppler has failed completely thus far.

 

I guess it comes down to whether you think a left fielder is a premium position that would be harder to fill than shortstop. If you do then you are wrong. Every season there are outfielders on the market (some considered premium players that tank) this season a glut that have no buyers.

 

But I do not ever recall in the last 10 years a shortstop of Simmons abilities being available on the open market at his age. It is far more difficult to fill that one position, the Angels were fortunate to have Aybar in the organization for as long as they had. But it was time to move on before they were left with a bigger problem than left field.

[tdawg87]

I guess it comes down to whether you think a left fielder is a premium position that would be harder to fill than shortstop. If you do then you are wrong. Every season there are outfielders on the market (some considered premium players that tank) this season a glut that have no buyers.

 

You keep saying this, yet the Angels haven't been able to successfully fill the LF position since GA left. You'd think it would be easy if there are so many outfielders available. They've been far more successful filling the SS position than left in recent years. Aybar, Cabrera, Eckstein. Now Simmons.

Edited January 16, 2016 by tdawg87

[AngelsFanSince86]

I like how everyone pretends to know if it was a good deal or not.

If Newcomb is a bust, Braves got fleeced.

Newcomb becomes an ace, Angels got fleeced.

Its that simple. Anything else is just useless banter. We'll revisit this in about 3 years. Now lock this thread please.

So if you were a GM you'd be Stoneman. You'd hold on to all your prospects because there's no way to ever know 100% if it's a fair trade.

You are correct that nobody can know for sure long term if it's a one sided trade or even just fair. But prospects have a value as is. My assertion is that based on other trades including top prospects they got a fair deal. Some people think otherwise. The whole discussion is based on current value, not a down the line assessment.

In my opinion, unless newcomb turns into a cy Young pitcher is a good deal. And even then, if Simmons progresses as a hitter we probably still got the better deal

[Stradling]

Sorry for deleting your post Doc. I came in and cleaned the thread. I was embarrassed at myself for arguing with a self proclaimed troll.

[QuinlansMinion]

So if you were a GM you'd be Stoneman. You'd hold on to all your prospects because there's no way to ever know 100% if it's a fair trade.

You are correct that nobody can know for sure long term if it's a one sided trade or even just fair. But prospects have a value as is. My assertion is that based on other trades including top prospects they got a fair deal. Some people think otherwise. The whole discussion is based on current value, not a down the line assessment.

In my opinion, unless newcomb turns into a cy Young pitcher is a good deal. And even then, if Simmons progresses as a hitter we probably still got the better deal

No im all for giving up prospects for star players.  But in this case, we didnt really improve that much.  I get that Simmons is an upgrade at SS, but our offense desperately needed to be upgraded more, and instead it likely got worse by trading Aybar.  But okay lets go ahead and say Simmons is a huge upgrade at SS, we still traded away our best prospects and potentially the future of our rotation to improve a below average team to maybe just average.    

 

If we had made the Simmons trade and then followed up with signing Upton or Cespedes, and also making the Gott for Escobar deal, I would have liked the deal a lot more.  If were not going to contend these next couple of years anyway I dont see the point in trading our best prospects.  The only way this team comes close to a division is if Cron somehow becomes Cespedes with 30 homers and an .800 OPS, or some unforeseen player in the system comes up and immediately starts contributing at a high level.  As of right now the lineup on paper is terrible.  The starting rotation is probably above average.  Bullpen is questionable.  Defense is ok, 3 bad infield defenders (Escobar, Tella, Cron).  

[Blarg]

You keep saying this, yet the Angels haven't been able to successfully fill the LF position since GA left. You'd think it would be easy if there are so many outfielders available. They've been far more successful filling the SS position than left in recent years. Aybar, Cabrera, Eckstein. Now Simmons.

There were plenty of good decisions to make to fill left field but the last two GMs failed miserably. That does not mean there wasn't a market out there for that position, the Angels simply missread it.

Eck and Cabrera only held the position for three years apiece. Only Aybar has been the one reliable asset but his time started 10 years ago. The Angels have yet to develop any other infielders since Kendrck.

The Angels had a lucky run with Aybar and wasted half a billion on left field in the same time period. Without trading for Simmons the Angels would be shit out of luck for a shortstop while there still will be more unemployed outfielders to choose from. Good ones. But no really grwat shortstops at any price.

You know the best left fielder since GA was Reggie Willits for one season. That is how stupidly volitile that position has been. Why spread the disease to Shortstop where we've had so many years of success?

Aquiring Simmons was a brilliant trade.

[tdawg87]

A bit early to say it's a "brilliant trade". Simmons hasn't played a single inning as an Angel.

 

On paper it seems like a good trade. One in which the Angels gave up a lot of potential talent, but a good trade nonetheless. But we still have a gigantic, gaping hole in left field. Aybar was still a good shortstop, and likely will be for at least the next few seasons. We could have kept him, extended him, and used our only valuable trade pieces to fill the hole we actually needed to fill. Or, if they were content with using our only valuable trade assets to fix next year's problem, then they should have also been content to use money to fill the biggest hole they have this year. Instead they've spent everything to fix a problem that wasn't going to be there until 2017 and decided to plug up the hole they have now using band-aids. Band-aids that will need to be replaced again in 2017. And again in 2018.

[Blarg]

Well I'd rather have the bandaid than that bloodsucking leaches they have had for the last umpteen years.

[tdawg87]

Certainly, but last year they had a whole wad of band-aids in left and they all sucked balls.

[Blarg]

This year they have a new GM. Maybe that was the real missing piece all along.

[Docwaukee]

This year they have a new GM. Maybe that was the real missing piece all along.

yep.  he's a piece alright.  

[Guest]

I guess it comes down to whether you think a left fielder is a premium position that would be harder to fill than shortstop. If you do then you are wrong. Every season there are outfielders on the market (some considered premium players that tank) this season a glut that have no buyers.

 

But I do not ever recall in the last 10 years a shortstop of Simmons abilities being available on the open market at his age. It is far more difficult to fill that one position, the Angels were fortunate to have Aybar in the organization for as long as they had. But it was time to move on before they were left with a bigger problem than left field.

Look, imagine giving a homeless man $500. He's starving and freezing from the rain.

 

Instead of buying food, clothes, or arranging for shelter, the homeless man goes out to Neiman Marcus and buys a $500 watch. After all, it's the last fancy watch in stock, and it's on sale. After enjoying the watch for an hour, the homeless man forgot about it because he was too hungry and cold to give a shit about a watch. 

 

Billy Eppler splurged way too soon on a SS this team doesn't need at the moment. If this free agent market is so overpriced, then he could have traded Newcomb or Ellis for a decent LF and remained under the luxury limit. Instead, the team is at the mercy of Arte and his golden yacht.  

[Lou]

Look, imagine giving a homeless man $500. He's starving and freezing from the rain.

 

Instead of buying food, clothes, or arranging for shelter, the homeless man goes out to Neiman Marcus and buys a $500 watch. After all, it's the last fancy watch in stock, and it's on sale. After enjoying the watch for an hour, the homeless man forgot about it because he was too hungry and cold to give a shit about a watch. 

 

Billy Eppler splurged way too soon on a SS this team doesn't need at the moment. If this free agent market is so overpriced, then he could have traded Newcomb or Ellis for a decent LF and remained under the luxury limit. Instead, the team is at the mercy of Arte and his golden yacht.

Who plays ss in 2017 and beyond? We may have not needed a ss at the moment, but GMs can't limit their thought process to what is best for only the upcoming season. I'd rather make the move 1 year early than 1 year too late. I'm looking forward to watching Simmons play ss for us. The guy is a freak.

[Glen]

Look, imagine giving a homeless man $500. He's starving and freezing from the rain.

Instead of buying food, clothes, or arranging for shelter, the homeless man goes out to Neiman Marcus and buys a $500 watch. After all, it's the last fancy watch in stock, and it's on sale. After enjoying the watch for an hour, the homeless man forgot about it because he was too hungry and cold to give a shit about a watch.

Billy Eppler splurged way too soon on a SS this team doesn't need at the moment. If this free agent market is so overpriced, then he could have traded Newcomb or Ellis for a decent LF and remained under the luxury limit. Instead, the team is at the mercy of Arte and his golden yacht.

You should do something other than making analogies.

[Lou]

You should do something other than making analogies.

You mean like, oh I don't know... something he's good at?

[Inside Pitch]

You keep saying this, yet the Angels haven't been able to successfully fill the LF position since GA left. You'd think it would be easy if there are so many outfielders available. They've been far more successful filling the SS position than left in recent years. Aybar, Cabrera, Eckstein. Now Simmons.

 

Thats more an indictment of the talent evaluation on the Angels part than it is a lack of LFers...  Perhaps a different front office would have been able to find a suitable LFer to spend the vast resources the Angels have wasted on LF..  Players, dollars, time..... pissed away.   Eck, Aybar were both in house solutions.... one of them picked up off the discard pile  Likewise GA had been an in house solution   We traded our in house solution for LF to get Salas.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Inside Pitch

[Blarg]

You mean like, oh I don't know... something he's good at?

Drive through service with a smile?

[wopphil]

I think it is hard to call the trade an over-pay. Simmons is almost a lock for 3-4 WAR, and we get five prime years from him.

Newcomb's value is in his ability to miss bats. It comes with an horrendous walk rate, which Newcomb may or may not be able to fix. And assuming he does fix it, he will become much more hitable. He is far from a sure thing.

[Second Base]

Though I've been an outspoken opponent of this trade, I'm excited about Simmons in 2015. What I'm concerned about however, is the relative certainty of Simmons declining skill set. He's elite because of the defense, but as has been reported, that's an inconsistent skill set that declines at a young age and rather quickly, particularly among infielders. There's a very good chance that in 3 years, Simmons will have gone from great to good, which is generally where Aybar's been at in his career. Now obviously Simmons can more than offset this if he starts hitting the ball with a lot more consistent authority. And while I think he'll improve offensively, I don't know if it will be enough to offset a diminishment in defense. I feel he's going to transition from a 4 win player to a 2 win player over the course of his contract, simply because of the one great skill he has.

Now obviously I won't argue about the price we paid, that's been hashed out enough, but I'm concerned we acquired a player who won't be able to he same thing he was in Atlanta. Seems like splitting hairs though, he's good regardless.

[eligrba]

I will be glad when spring training begins so this conversation can end.

 

Epploscia obviously thinks a new shortstop and a platoon for left field will get the job done.

[Stradling]

I will be glad when spring training begins so this conversation can end.

Epploscia obviously thinks a new shortstop and a platoon for left field will get the job done.

Yes the last thing a manager wants is a complete team, you're right.

[eligrba]

Yes the last thing a manager wants is a complete team, you're right.

 

The Angels have a complete team....just not necessarily the one fans want.

 

You do not think that Arte would have been more aggressive if Scioscia identified left field as a huge need for this team?

 

Are you condescending all of the time or just on AW?

[stormngt]

That's not the problem with the trade. The problem is that Eppler put the cart before the horse.

I still contend that is on Arte. I believed he pulled the plug on the off season strategy. Eppler was probably told we would be aggressive for a free agent lf.

[Stradling]

The Angels have a complete team....just not necessarily the one fans want.

You do not think that Arte would have been more aggressive if Scioscia identified left field as a huge need for this team?

Are you condescending all of the time or just on AW?

It's a ridiculous premise to think Scioscia is telling Arte that left field is fine. I have no idea if Arte would be more aggressive or not. What I do know is managers want the best roster possible. Owners have other things to worry about in addition to the roster.